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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 13 Jun 1980

Vol. 322 No. 4

Estimates, 1980. - Vote 22: Office of the Minister for Justice.

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £7,112,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1980, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Justice, and of certain other services administered by that Office, and of the Public Record Office, and of the Keeper of State Papers and for the purchase of historical documents, etc., and for payment of a grant-in-aid.

With the permission of the Cheann Comhairle, I propose that all the Votes for which I am responsible be taken together but I shall endeavour to answer any questions on any particular Vote.

The total Estimate for all the votes for which I am responsible is £144,128,000 made up as follows: Vote 22—Office of the Minister for Justice, £7,112,000; Vote 23—Garda Síochána, £110,554,000; Vote 24—Prisons, £188,255,000; Vote 25—Courts, £4,723,000; Vote 26— Land Registry and Registry of Deeds, £3,384,000; Vote 27—Charitable Donations and Bequests, £100,000. This total of £144,128,000 compares with a total Estimate for these six Votes of £101,910,000 in 1979.

In the limited time available to me I would like to take the opportunity to say a few words concerning the various areas for which I, as Minister for Justice, have responsibility.

The safeguarding of the security of the State and the fight against crime places a very heavy and ever-increasing burden on the Exchequer. I am sure, however, that Deputies will agree with me that this expenditure is essential. This year, for the first time, the overall provision in the Vote for the Garda Síochána has topped the £100 million mark.

It is my job as Minister for Justice to see that the force have sufficient resources of men and equipment to respond to the demands that society is making on it. As regards manpower, the House will already be aware of the substantial increases in Garda strength which have taken place since I took office as Minister for Justice. In July 1977 the strength of the Garda Síochána was 8,485 people. By 1 June this year the strength of the force had been increased to 9,607, or by approximately 13 per cent. In all, a total of 1,560 gardaí have been recruited since July 1977 but allowing for wastage, due to retirements and deaths, the net increase in strength is 1,122. Recruitment of additional gardaí is still continuing and another recruitment campaign is at present under way with a view to bringing the overall strength of the force to 10,000 by the end of this year.

To ensure that all the manpower provided for the force is utilised in the the most efficient way possible, studies are being conducted in provincial Garda districts and in the Dublin area, to see what combinations of patrol cars, cycles and foot patrols, with the assistance of modern radio communications, can provide the best service to the local communities. The Garda authorities accept that some experimentation is desirable in these matters and pilot schemes are planned for selected areas to see whether long-standing methods of providing Garda coverage can be improved upon. These pilot schemes will be conducted in full consultation with local communities and I am hopeful that they will produce very worthwhile results.

In the meantime, the Garda authorities, at my instance, are working on details of plans for new measures intended to provide stronger and more effective Garda coverage in Dublin and other major cities.

A number of Garda areas of work are already being aided by computer systems, that is, work related to the registration of firearms, stolen and suspect vehicles, crime reporting and recording, missing persons, and so on. Some of these systems are being developed and others are planned.

The Forensic Science Laboratory of my Department is only in its fifth year in existence but already it has established itself as an important aid to the Garda Síochána in their efforts to apprehend wrongdoers and obtain convictions in court. The staff have been substantially increased and, in addition, the very best and most up-to-date equipment has been provided for use in the laboratory. This is a concrete example of this Government's commitment to assist the Garda.

Work is also going ahead on the planning of a modern, national radio network for the force and I want to take this opportunity to thank a number of the foremost experts in the country who are acting as an advisory committee to oversee this work on my behalf. A consultant has been engaged to do detailed design work and it is hoped that the force will begin to experience the benefits of the new system in the coming year.

It is essential that the Garda radio maintenance and repair service be expanded and improved in preparation for the new radio network which I have referred to and negotiations on this matter will commence shortly with the Garda Associations concerned.

The crime situation continues to give cause for concern. As the recent debate during Private Member's Business on the topic of violence and vandalism ranged over the crime situation generally, I shall confine myself today to some brief remarks. The crime statistics for 1979 which I propose to give are provisional figures only. The final figures will appear in the Commissioner's Annual Crime Report for 1979 which will be published in a few months time.

The number of indictable offences for 1979 is provisionally 64,051 which represents an increase of 3.3 per cent on the 1978 figure. A total of 26,310 of these offences were detected in 1979; this is a 41 per cent detection rate, which is about the same as the rate for 1978. Statistics for 1980 obviously have to be treated with some caution but provisional figures in respect of the Dublin Metropolitan Area for the first four months of 1980 indicate an increase of 21.5 per cent over the corresponding period for last year. This worsening crime situation is of course very worrying.

In common with societies the world over, we have experienced a serious rise in crime in recent years. As in the case of other countries, we have experienced an upsurge in violent crimes and in organised crimes. Armed robberies, for example, which increased rapidly during the seventies have been of particular concern. There are varying opinions, even among experts, as to the causes of this development. Whatever the causes, the Government are resolute in their determination to take all reasonable steps to maintain standards of law and order.

Substantial Garda resources have to be allocated to combat the activities of subversive organisations and to safeguard the security of the State. A high level of Garda manpower is maintained in the Border areas to ensure protection of the public there and to prevent the use of those areas for the mounting of attacks in Northern Ireland. The measures that have been taken and that continue to be taken in allocating Garda and, indeed, Army personnel in substantial numbers to the Border areas involve a high cost.

I would like here to compliment the Garda Síochána for the work they are doing in this area. They have had some outstanding successes. During recent months they have seized large quantities of arms, ammunition and explosive materials. These seizures will have contributed to the saving of lives. I would also like to thank the Army for the continuing assistance they give to the Garda in the fight against terrorist crime.

Calls for the abolition of the Special Criminal Court are again being made by persons some of whom have consistently opposed the existence of the court. The House will be aware of the kneecapping in Donegal recently of a witness who gave evidence before the court. I am aware that other potential witnesses in Special Criminal Court cases have been subject to intimidation in recent times. I can give the House an assurance that the Special Criminal Court will remain in being for as long as the Government are satisfied that the need for it exists.

In August 1978, I received representations from the associations representing the ranks of the force up to and including chief superintendent to establish a committee of inquiry to examine and report on their pay. After some negotiation with the associations I was able to establish a committee of inquiry with broader terms of reference than those envisaged earlier by the associations. Copies of the report of this committee were laid before this House on 11 May 1979. I am sure Deputies are well aware of the various recommendations in the report.

The pay increases recommended in the report were substantial and were implemented from 1 March 1979, as recommended by the committee. Taking pay and rent allowance together the increases varied between 12 per cent for a recruit in training and 26 per cent for a garda with 15 years service. The increases for other ranks up to superintendent were also of the order of 26 per cent. The chief superintendents' increase was 21 per cent but these had already got a 5 per cent increase in 1977. The annual cost to the Exchequer is £14 million.

In addition to the increases in pay resulting from the recommendations of the Ryan Committee, the force have also benefited from the increases under the national understanding. Taking all the increases into account, the remuneration of a recruit garda has gone up by 35 per cent in the past 15 months and the remuneration of a garda with 15 years' service has gone up by 50 per cent. The increases for sergeants and higher ranks have also been of the order of 50 per cent.

As Deputies will be aware, the volume of court business continues to increase and the court structure generally has been under great pressure but, I am pleased to be able to tell the House, the district and circuit courts have coped well with the increased flow. This has been accomplished with the assistance of one temporary Circuit Court judge and two temporary district justices who were appointed in 1978 to help with the increased work-load.

Here I should like to say that the extremely serious arrears of business, especially criminal business, that existed in the Dublin Circuit Court in 1977 have been completely wiped out and, since this is the first opportunity I have had of doing so in this House, I want publicly to pay tribute—in which, I feel sure all Members of the House would wish to join—to the President of the Circuit Court and his colleagues who achieved this remarkable success.

The situation in the High Court is not so satisfactory, but I hasten to add this is not the fault of the court. Two additional High Court judges were, however, appointed in October 1979, following the enactment of the Courts Act, 1979, and arrangements are in hand for the provision later this year of two additional jury court rooms in the Four Courts, one of which will be for use by both the Circuit Court and the High Court, and the other by the High Court. I am hopeful that arrangements which the President of the High Court has made for the disposal of court business over the coming months will help to bring about a substantial and lasting reduction.

In the area of the provision of court resources, a serious problem is accommodation. Responsibility for the provision and maintenance of court accommodation, with certain exceptions in the Dublin area, is vested by law in local authorities. It is accepted that there are some venues where the court accommodation is less than satisfactory and I am at present having an inquiry carried out to establish the level of improvements required at the various court venues throughout the country.

The accommodation problem is most acute in Dublin where the steepest increase in court business has been experienced. Plans are now well advanced for the building of a new court office block on the site of the old Four Courts Hotel and when this is built and ready for occupation staff at present housed in the Four Courts proper will be transferred to it, thereby releasing accommodation suitable for adaptation as additional courtrooms which should ease the court accommodation problems of the High and Circuit Courts in Dublin for the foreseeable future.

The accommodation at the Children's Court in Dublin Castle has been the subject of criticism in recent times and I am glad to be able to inform the House that substantial improvements and redecoration have been carried out there by the Office of Public Works. However, the long-term solution is to move this court away from its existing premises and planning to this end is in train in consultation with the Office of Public Works.

Over £18 million has been estimated for expenditure on prisons in 1980. There are at present nine institutions operating under my Department as prisons and places of detention and the special school at Loughan House. The estimate for the Vote was based on an average daily population of 1,355. The total net estimate for the Vote exceeds the corresponding figure for 1979 by £4.964 million—an increase of 37 per cent. The main increases occur under subheads A, D and G.

The increase under subhead A, salaries, wages and allowances—£3,423 million or 38 per cent—is due to the fact that it is intended to increase the number of serving prison staff to 1,500 by the end of 1980. This means that 400 staff will be recruited in 1980 representing a net increase of about 350 or 30 per cent on staff numbers at the end of 1979. Taking into account the period required for recruitment and training of new recruits, the majority of them will not be on effective duty until well into the year. Even with additional staff, however, overtime will still be necessary especially to cover prisoners' evening recreation period. This overtime cannot be substantially reduced without changes in the rostering arrangements and discussions are continuing with the Prison Officers' Association on this topic.

The estimated cost of uniforms and other miscellaneous allowances, which are also accounted for under this subhead, has increased from £0.417 million in 1979 to £1.101 million in 1980. This is due partly to the proposed increase in the number of prison officers and partly to a reduction in the replacement period for some items of uniform.

Under subhead D, £3.8 million is provided for building and equipment. Of this £3 million is for "sites, new works, alterations and additions" and represents an increase of £1.2 million on last year's estimate. The balance of the subhead, £800,000, is attributed to maintenance and equipment and to the rental of storage accommodation—the corresponding figure for last year was £650,000.

Major capital building works are being carried out at Mountjoy, Arbour Hill Training Unit, Shelton Abbey and Loughan House. Initial site works have begun for the new high security prison at Portlaoise. The first phase of the development of the Wheatfield, County Dublin, site will commence in 1980.

For some years past successive Ministers for Justice have expressed their dissatisfaction with the custodial accommodation for women. I am determined that during my term of office tangible steps will be taken to build a new women's prison. I have already publicly announced that Wheatfield will be developed, starting in 1980, to provide the long awaited replacement for the women's prison.

On another part of the Wheatfield lands, work will also commence this year on the provision of a place of detention for 120 male juveniles between 16 and 21 years of age. This new accommodation for juveniles, together with a similar provision located in Cork city, will replace the present St. Patrick's Institution and enable St. Patrick's to be phased out of use as a place of detention for male juveniles.

The prison service training programme is being expanded and improvements are being made.

The question of legal aid—particularly legal aid in civil matters—has been the subject of considerable public interest and comment during the current year. Deputies will be aware that I laid the Government's scheme of civil legal aid and advice before the House in December 1979 and at that time I also set up the Legal Aid Board to administer the scheme. The Government's scheme goes well beyond the manifesto promise which was:

Legal aid will be extended to civil proceedings where this is necessary; as a first step it will be introduced in the area of family law.

The increasing cost of providing criminal legal aid has become a matter of concern to me and I am looking forward to receiving the committee's recommendations on this and other aspects of the scheme in its final report which I expect to receive in a matter of weeks.

I would like to mention now certain important legislative proposals that I confidently expect to bring before the House by the end of the year and, in some cases, before that.

The Committee on Court Practice and Procedure in their latest report to me recommended a substantial extension of the civil jurisdictions of the district and circuit courts and the conferring on those courts of new jurisdiction in family law matters. A Bill based on these recommendations is at an advanced stage of preparation.

I have already indicated in this House that I have legislation in relation to the law of rape under preparation. On 27 March 1980, I stated that I confidently expected to introduce the necessary Bill on this subject within the present year. Since then, consideration of the very complex issues involved has advanced considerably and as a result I expect to be shortly presenting my proposals to the Government. Although a considerable amount of drafting work has yet to be done, I now expect that I may be in a position to introduce the proposed Bill much earlier than the deadline I had already given.

Finally, I know that the Law Reform Commission have every hope of being able to present their final recommendations in regard to the tort of criminal conversation and certain other torts quite soon. On that basis I can confidently predict that by the end of this year I will be introducing a Bill to abolish the tort of criminal conversation and certain other torts, while at the same time indicating, by the presence or absence of other proposals in the Bill, what the Government's attitude is on the question whether a new form or forms of action should be recommended to the Houses.

My other areas of responsibility include the Land Registry, Registry of Deeds, Public Record Office, Criminal Injuries Compensation Tribunal, Adoption, Censorship of Films and Publications, Aliens' Control and Charitable Donations and Bequests. Unfortunately in the time allotted to me I cannot comment on them now but I shall endeavour to answer any questions that Deputies may wish to ask.

Fine Gael have 20 minutes. I understand Deputy Harte has given a few minutes to Deputy Keating. I will call the two Deputies one after the other.

First, I want to welcome what the Minister has to say about the different matters, courts, jails, rape and everything else. We do not have time at our disposal to deal with these. I also want to put on the record that I think the arrangements made by the Whips are unacceptable to the House when dealing with an Estimate as big as the Department of Justice and the fact that the Minister did not have sufficient time to deal completely with his brief emphasises the point I am making. In future we will have to deal with this with more time to spare. Let me say that I sympathise with the Minister on that point.

Let me say bluntly to the Minister that he has been more vocal about crime, crime detection and crime prevention in opposition than he has been successful in relation to those matters in Government. Some of the promises made in the manifesto were:

6. Satisfactory negotiation procedures for the Garda Síochána will be set up to investigate such areas as work conditions, disciplinary complaints, transfers and promotions.

7. Whatever technical equipment, foot patrols or overtime is required to combat the serious increase in urban crime will be provided, as a matter of urgency.

That is the point that I am going to take. The phrase "as a matter of urgency" is used. What is urgent about serious crime at the moment? Every Thursday and Friday night people wonder which bank is going to be broken into next and which garda is going to be held up. At the moment we have not sufficient gardaí on the streets to deal with urban crime. It is an indictment of the Minister and the Department of Justice and, indeed, the Government that they are not combating this and are not listening to the crying voices of the Garda.

Both Garda representative bodies have continually called on the Department of Justice, through the Minister, for certain things and they are not getting them. Last week there was comment about it. But what do we get? We have the Minister attending a Garda representative conference and lecturing them on the way he is combating crime. But the facts are different. Are the figures given by the Minister in a report in the paper in the last couple of days correct? Will the Minister clearly state to the general public which figures in relation to increase in crime are correct, the ones put forward to the Minister and the Department of Justice by the Garda, or the ones put forward by the Minister? The people have a constitutional right to safety. They should be able to go to their beds at night to sleep in peace knowing that their property is not going to be interfered with. That is not the case at the moment.

Bad as urban crime is, it is equally bad in rural Ireland because now, with the concentration of gardaí in the centre of the city, crime has moved out to the suburbs and the property of the people living in the suburbs is now threatened. It is a system of robbing Peter to pay Paul that the Minister is operating to combat crime and it is not good enough. About two years ago, in September 1978, I made an impassioned plea to the Minister to negotiate with the Garda, to ask them to do more duties. I know I made certain recommendations which were not acceptable to all gardaí but they were acceptable to a large majority in the Garda. The position is that if we are to combat crime we need more gardaí. The Minister does not have facilities to train sufficient gardaí, to have them out on the beat and give them the experience they need to fight in the war against crime. Furthermore, the number of gardaí on the streets at the moment is three-quarters of the number we had at the time of the Conroy Report when the working hours of the gardaí were reduced. God knows, this was needed because when I was in Donegal I did not know what a garda looked like in civilian clothes; he always wore his uniform except for a family wedding or a funeral or holidays because he was all the time on duty. That was an absolutely antiquated, Victorian age and the Garda had to be updated. The Conroy Report resulted in the updating of their conditions and their working hours. It did not give us more men on the beat but then we had no bank robberies at the end of the sixties and the beginning of the seventies. It was only after trouble broke out in the North, which coincided with the Conroy Report, that the trouble started and we find now that virtually every week there are bank robberies and gardaí being held up. It is a ludicrous situation to have an unarmed garda protecting a bank with robbers coming in and pushing him to the floor and treating him as if he were a dog. Would it not be quite easy for the Minister, as part of a back-up force, to have armed police officers on the streets in civilian clothes so that the raider would not know which person in the street was the detective? It is just not good enough to expose unarmed gardaí who are protecting the funds of the wealthy rich here in these banks to these risks. It is not good enough to have security officers being paid far more for transporting this money than the gardaí who are giving them the security and the Army that are backing them up. There is unrest in the Garda at the moment because of this. The security officers in Dublin Airport are paid far more basic pay than the Garda are being paid at the moment. They have unlimited overtime, any amount of overtime they want and that is a very necessary part of living today and the Garda are not getting this. The Minister cannot run away from the problem any longer. He cannot ignore the plea from the Garda representative bodies that there is a need for more gardaí on the beat and he cannot ignore the fact that he has got the power to put the number of gardaí on the beat that we require. If we want to combat crime we have to have gardaí on the streets.

I cannot understand why experienced gardaí who are knowledgeable in the war against crime are not allowed to work longer hours. I am not talking about something that would be permanent. I am speaking in the context of the emergency situation that exists. The Minister should consult with the Garda representatives at all levels and endeavour to find a base for overtime pay. If the people who elect us want security, there is an obligation on the Government to provide that security. The Garda are willing to co-operate in this whole area of security but they must be paid properly for any overtime that is involved. Like any other section of the community they are prepared to work if they are being paid for that work but they cannot be expected to work more than a 40-hour week if they will not be paid for the overtime involved.

I am confident that the war against crime can be stepped up substantially if we are prepared to negotiate a new deal with the Garda. There is no reason for gardaí being deployed on prison work and neither is there any reason for their being engaged in the work of escorting security vans especially when the security men are being paid more than the gardaí. That is a dangerous situation. I have been told there are many men in senior positions in the Garda who are considering resigning from the force in the knowledge that they will be able to get more lucrative pay from security firms.

According to figures supplied by the Garda Representive Body, the crime rate has increased by 25 per cent. The Minister must do something about this very serious situation and the only way in which he can act is by ensuring that there are sufficient gardaí on the beat and that there is a back up of better communications and better car patrols. There is no point in substituting patrol cars for men on the beat when the men in the cars are not familiar with the areas they are patrolling.

I have been living in Raphoe since my marriage in 1953 and if I wished to contact a garda there I would not be able to recognise one of these young men out of uniform. The same situation applies in every other area and it is due to the fact that gardaí are no longer allowed to remain in districts in which they have become known and respected. What is the reason for the change in policy in this regard? If a garda is known and respected in an area he will be given willingly any information he seeks.

The Minister may reply to some of these remarks by saying that garda strength is to be increased by 500 and that when we were in office the force was not increased. While that is correct, there is an explanation for it.

At the outbreak of the troubles in Northern Ireland and following the bombing of the customs post at Lifford, I telephoned the then Taoiseach, Deputy Lynch, to tell him that there was a good deal of anxiety in that town and that I wished to speak to him about arranging for more gardaí to be sent to the area. Subsequently I met the then Minister for Justice, Deputy O'Malley, and the then Minister for Defence, Deputy Cronin, on the matter. When I asked Deputy O'Malley about more gardaí for the area I was told that they were not available and when I replied that we would have to train extra men he replied that not only was there not the time to train them but that we could not get men to train. At that time the strength of the force was embarrassingly low, consisting of about 8,000 people. I turned then to Deputy Cronin and said that if we could not have gardaí, we must have military police but his reply was that we did not have sufficient men in the Army to secure Army installations. That was in 1971 when we were talking about securing the Border but it was a situation that was no different from the situation that existed when Fianna Fáil left office in 1973. The Coalition did their best to increase the strength both of the Army and of the Garda and it is unfair of the Minister to act as if he had a box of Smarties, saying, "Look at how many there are in the force now." The Minister is doing a great deal of good but he should not try to demonstrate the good he is doing by exposing what other people did not do without giving the full facts. All previous Fianna Fáil Governments share the responsibility for allowing the Army and the Garda to be depleted to an all-time low.

To give an example of how Garda strength has been weakened let us have regard to the changes brought about as a result of the Conroy Report. The situation up to then had been that in a station in this city in which there was a garda strength of 36, those 36 men were divided into three groups of 12, each group working eight hours per day, but the situation after the implementation of the Conroy proposals would have been that those 36 men would have been broken into four groups thereby leaving nine men on duty instead of 12. In saying that, I recognise that Conroy was necessary in terms of up-dating Garda conditions but the changes resulted in fewer men being on duty at any time. The only way of coping with the present emergency system is for the Minister, in consultation with the Garda representative bodies, to reach agreement on a proper rate of overtime pay.

Any Estimate for the Department of Justice should be concerned primarily with a basic attempt at trying to understand how society can cope with the task of instilling improved standards of justice throughout the community and with a better way of coping with crime. Any such Estimate should contain some basic provision for the kind of society we must have if crime is to diminish and to be tackled at its roots. Unfortunately, the Estimate before us is little more than a litany of stereotyped reactions, of increasing sums of money payable in accordance with a formula that is enacted year after year but with little success in coping with crime or in bringing about improved standards of justice.

The reality is that the whole concept of justice in our community is becoming increasingly disrespected, a situation for which there are very deep roots which should be dealt with at least in passing by the Minister on this Estimate or on the occasion of a similar opportunity. Instead, we find that the major preoccupation in the Estimate is to claim, almost triumphantly, that somehow it is progress to be able to inform the House that, for instance, the estimate in respect of prisons has increased by 37 per cent and that the estimates for other areas of detention are mounting beyond levels that are acceptable. While all of this may be necessary, it must be necessary also to try to ensure that next year the Estimate for the Department will not have to be doubled.

Deputy Harte has dealt with the concern being expressed about the failure of the Government to deal with the present situation. At the more basic level, there is not only abject failure but apparently there is not even sufficient consideration to justify a reference to the whole concept of justice in either of two successive Estimate speeches.

The Government were forthright and committed in their election manifesto in the area of justice. In this regard they gave seven explicit commitments. More in sadness than in anger, I am suggesting to the House that not one of these commitments has been implemented. The first one was that the existing legal aid system in criminal cases would be improved and extended. I have not heard a word since about that.

The second promise was that legal aid would be extended to civil cases where this is necessary and that as a first step it would be introduced in the area of family law. The Minister claims in his speech that he has gone beyond that. The reality is that the scheme is not yet in operation and, despite all the huffing and puffing over the last two years, this extension of the scheme—heralded by experts in the area as being doomed to fail, in any event, bound presumably by the strictures of the Department of Finance who would be afraid that it might cost too much to ensure that justice operated in the community—is still trying to limp and flounder into existence. That is the level of success in that area.

The third promise was that new, informal and less institutionalised procedures and tribunals would be established in relation to family law and child offenders which would have expert remedial and social back-up services at their disposal, not to mention the informal Consumer Tribunals. Let silence be my charity about the progress in those areas.

No. 4 promised the acceptance of majority verdicts in criminal cases where agreement is reached by at least ten jurors. I am not completely convinced of the merit or otherwise of that proposal but presumably those who made it believed that they would implement it. It does not seem one which would require major consideration and I wonder why it has not been done, if it was promised.

No. 5 was that the 1908 Children's Act would be amended to bring it into line with modern social thinking, that the age of criminal responsibility would be reviewed and that the criminal capacity of the child would be assessed at informal hearings. One of the shames of this House is the manner in which it has ignored the children of this country. Its abject failure to do anything about reform of children's legislation is one of the sadder chapters of the increasingly tatty history of this House. I consider it to be particularly sad when it is about children who, by and large, are inarticulate and cannot fight for themselves. That is a complete and abject failure on the Minister's part.

No. 6 was that satisfactory negotiation procedures for the Garda Síochána would be set up to investigate such areas as work conditions and so on. Deputy Harte has mentioned this and has shown that, in fact, what has happened in the meantime clearly indicates that the Garda are far from satisfied that any improvement has been carried out here. Indeed, for the first time in my memory, the implication has been made that there has been a new and increased level of political interference with the manner in which justice is dispensed, an allegation which should be dealt with in a very fulsome manner by the Minister in the interests of everybody in this House.

No. 7 was that whatever technical equipment, foot patrols or overtime was required to combat the serious increase in urban crime would be provided— mind you, as a matter of urgency. In a Dáil question to the Minister for Justice some weeks ago, I discovered that the number of gardaí in the inner city of Dublin, about which the Minister waxes so eloquent and is so concerned, has increased in the last three years since he became Minister for Justice by a total of three gardaí, a decrease in real terms, if taken as a percentage of the population. That says enough about the concern there.

The whole area of justice is a very difficult and very challenging one. The Minister has made mistake after mistake and has shown himself not be to truly and deeply concerned about justice in the community. Indeed, if he were even concerned about the basic matters, about consultations with communities, he would have been able, by adequate and proper consultation to have ensured that his plans for prisons in the Clondalkin area, about which Deputy Mitchell, Deputy Harte and others in this House are concerned and about which many people in the community are concerned, would have got off to a better start.

Hear, hear.

Instead of that, he makes a lame and weak appeal for our support when he has made his mind up on the matter. This side of the House would be responsible and responsive to a Minister's request if we were asked in a dignified way at the beginning of such a decision-making process. These residents should have got a better hearing from the Minister than they got.

We also want to know if the blue-print which he has talked about and promised in relation to crime, and which of course is the most vaunted and most talked about proposal in recent times, has anything at all to do with the proposal submitted by the Garda bodies, comment on which was notably absent from his speech.

Finally, and I do not say this with any great degree of glee or joy because the Minister has a difficult job, his career in the Department of Justice since I have come to take an interest in it in parliamentary terms has been marked by the response which we get when we ask about crime in the community or about standards of justice, or about court facilities, or simple matters like the delays in High Court judgments which are an increasing scandal and about which the Minister appears to be unable to even comment. His reaction on all occasions has been to say that we must spend more money to build more jails, to build bigger cells and to make stronger keys and locks.

The Minister recognises, as anyone in this House who is a responsible public representative does, that the origins of crime run deep in our community and will not be solved merely by massive doses of expenditure in reactionary responses to crime. We must have security in the streets and secure and good prisons, a contented and well-equipped Garda force and so, too, with the prison officers. But we must have more than that and the Minister knows it. There has not been one word of a deeper concern in any speech the Minister has made in this House since I came into it, and I am saddened by that. If this were the operation of a private company and if the Minister were chairman of the board in this area, he would be asked to resign, and he should seriously consider doing so.

I am glad to have an opportunity of speaking, before the Minister tenders his resignation. The Minister has a thankless job, but he would not be surprised if that were the last bouquet which travels in his direction from this side of the House this afternoon. He is over 21, he took the post with his eyes open and he cannot turn around and tell us or anybody else that he would have thought differently about it if he had had longer to think about it. The reason why the Minister's job is a thankless one is not just because there is a law and order problem and a crime problem. It is especially thankless because he is a member of the Fianna Fáil administration. The Minister finds himself in a position of having to mop up many of the consequences of the social and economic problems created largely by the overall economic and financial policies of the administration of which he forms a part.

I am not so naive as to argue, as some people might, that every time a 16 or 17 year old person hits an old age pensioner over the head with a lump of wood and steals a handbag, it is the 16 or 17 year old who is the victim of society. However, I do believe that the pressures, the strains and the constraints in society as a whole, and particularly the economic ones, have far more to tell us about the incidence of crime, its nature and its geographical distribution than any over-simplified analysis of criminal actions, whether they take place in the inner city or elsewhere.

There is only one long-term answer to the law and order problem and it has two aspects, as anybody who listened recently to the compelling series of radio documentaries about the Sheriff Street area will believe. The first is employment, the second is a fairer distribution of the good things of this life. Why should we wonder at the existence of a law and order problem under an administration which has so consistently failed to provide either?

One of the ironies, of course, and I am presuming for the moment a degree of personal culpability—is that the underprivileged in our society rarely, if ever, go about preying on the wealthiest members of society. It is not the ordinary householder who can afford a house with a couple of acres of garden, a 10 foot high wall with glass on top, an electronic alarm system, alsatian dogs, the private security services to keep him and his property safe from the depredations of people who believe in a slightly unorthodox transfer of resources in society. It is the ordinary householder who, by and large, has to suffer the consequences of, among other things—and I would not underestimate the element of personal culpability in any of these areas—the failure to find employment and the failure to provide an adequate and fair distribution of the resources of society.

The job of the Minister and of his Department is a mopping-up one. Unfortunately it is also one which can tend to legitimise a society which fails to provide for many of our young people the jobs they need, which fails to provide structures which redistribute wealth in society to those who need it most.

A lot has been talked here this afternoon about prisons and the Minister spoke of them in his introductory remarks. I am sure at least a part of the Minister will agree with me when I say that if he and the Government were doing their job properly they would be closing down prisons and not opening them up. I am particularly upset by the proposal to build a new women's prison in this country. I cannot see the logic for it. We are told, not directly in the Minister's speech, that he intends to provide more than twice the maximum number of cells that have ever been occupied by women in the recent past in this country. Not only that, but surely the Minister will admit that the main crimes for which women are imprisoned in our society—crimes connected with prostitution and shop-lifting—are crimes which many people believe should be totally de-criminalised and which many other people believe should be remedied by means other than custodial sentences? We must ask the Minister here and now to state whether or not he will reconsider this proposal, not least because a new women's prison of this size and type could be a most expensive white elephant and a very ill-fitting monument to his tenure in this department.

I want to refer now to a number of other areas, some of which were covered by the Minister's speech and others which were not. The first is in connection with ground rents. During the last election campaign spokesmen for the Minister's party were going around doing their best to give the impression that the Fianna Fáil Party, if returned to Government, would abolish existing ground rents. I, and other speakers from my party, as well as speakers from the Fine Gael Party, did our level best to warn people that what was involved here was a major confidence trick, that there were substantial constitutional problems involved and that the phraseology of the Fianna Fáil manifesto—a promise to introduce a scheme leading to the abolition of residential ground rents—was not necessarily what it seemed to be and that the commitment it appeared to express might prove to be a very tenuous one indeed. Now, three years later, the people have realised that they were unwise to have accepted that commitment at face value. Many of them must be bitterly regretting that they did not pay more heed to the warnings issued at public meetings by speakers from the Labour and Fine Gael Parties about the deviousness of the approach then being adopted to this question.

Some time ago I put down a question to the Minister for Finance in relation to ground rents paid on Government property. I did not do so with any intention of wasting civil servants' time. I was astonished to get an answer that must have been one of the longest in the history of the State, containing over 30 pages of information about premises the Government owned and on which they paid ground rent—indeed, they had actually bought premises on which ground rent was payable. So much for the reality behind the rhetoric. We remain unaware so far of whether or not the Government have even decided, or inaugurated, the buying out of ground rents under their much-vaunted legislation. We still do not even know whether Fianna Fáil, the party of reality, the Republican Party, have even set a priority of buying out the ground rent on the GPO. People will be regarding that kind of rhetoric and those kinds of promises coming from that party with a much more jaundiced eye when the next election comes around.

The Minister spoke of security and in particular of the Border area security problem. It is obvious that Border security is a problem which concerns all of us in two ways. First of all, it concerns us because it is in everybody's interest to reduce the level of violence by para-military organisations, of whatever hue, in this country. Secondly, because the cost of the Border operations in general and of security operations attributable to the Northern problem has escalated so hugely in recent years. We had the Minister for Finance's word for it during the debate on Northern Ireland in recent times that the security cost directly attributable to the Northern Ireland problem has risen by a factor of 40 over the last ten years, from £2 million in 1969-70 to £82 million in the current year. When we think of how many primary schools, how many universities even, could be built with those £82 million, we must seriously worry about that.

There is one specific question I should like to ask the Minister, that is, in relation to overflights. Has the incidence of overflights by British security forces from the Northern side of the Border into the territory of the Republic increased or decreased since 1 January this year? I believe that if this information could be made available to the House by the Minister it would put a lot of the rhetoric over the last six months into a very different perspective.

I want now to deal with the question of the Garda in general and to ask the Minister to re-consider his total and out-of-hand refusal of the request of the Garda for some kind of structures which would remove from them the accusation of any form of interference from outside, which would create a representative body structure, or a Garda Authority structure which would ensure that the exercise and administration of justice—would be not only above suspicion but seen to be above suspicion at all times.

In this connection there are a couple of instances I should like to bring to the Minister's attention. I anticipate that he would not be able to deal with them in his reply. They involve a certain amount of detail. They also involve detail I cannot use in this House but which I will be happy to give the Minister if he asks me for it. It relates to the fact that in the County Cork area there is at present considerable apprehension among members of the Garda about the apparent non-enforcement of the law. In relation to one licensed premises—I shall call it licensed premises A and I will not identify the town in which it is located—the Garda carried out an inspection there at 1 a.m. on 4 November 1979 and found about 100 persons on the premises. The superintendent directed a prosecution, summonses were made out and served but, a few days and before the court hearing, the superintendent directed the sergeant involved to withdraw the summonses. We want to know why that happened. At the same licensed premises, at 11.53 p.m. on 9 February 1980, again after-hours trading was going on, with about 65 persons on the premises. Again the superintendent directed the prosecution, summonses were made out and sent to the sergeant's office. Those summonses were later taken possession off by the superintendent and, to the best of my knowledge, have not since been served or seen.

In relation to another licensed premises—which I shall call licensed premises B—a similar set of circumstances was involved. In relation to a third licensed premises in the same town an inspection was carried out on 3 February 1980 at 10.45 p.m. when about 200 persons were on the premises. Again the superintendent directed prosecutions, summonses were made out and sent to the sergeant, but later summonses were taken possession of by the superintendent and were not served or seen since. There was another incident in relation to the same licensed premises but I will not take up the time of the House by reading out the facts because they are exactly the same. This is the kind of thing that has the morale of the Garda in bits in this area and, for all we know, in other areas as well.

I would like to refer to the powers available to the Minister under the 1933 Public Hospitals Act. Under that Act the Minister for Justice has the function of sanctioning any scheme for a sweepstake either without modification or with such modification as he may think fit to make therein. When next given the scheme for the promotion of the sweepstake by the Irish Hospitals Sweepstakes, I appeal to him to satisfy himself on a number of very important questions before he sanctions such a scheme. I ask him to satisfy himself about the method of transportation of sweeps tickets. Are tickets smuggled into the United States and Canada smuggled out of Ireland in a way which breaks the law? Is he satisfied that adequate and full customs declarations are made in respect of any sweeps tickets which leave this country? I ask him to satisfy himself that profits from the sweeps operation are not being creamed off by middlemen outside this country, who get free tickets or who break our law indirectly and in other ways by selling tickets at premium prices.

I would like him to satisfy himself that, as guaranteed on the sweeps ticket, all receipts which buyers get are issued in Dublin and not in other countries. I ask him to satisfy himself about the role of transit agents. These people receive mail from North America, send it to the sweeps office and get money back with receipts from the sweep and send the receipts to the sellers in North America and Canada. I would like him to satisfy himself that all such transactions and payments are fully notified to the Revenue authorities.

I would also like him to satisfy himself that he has adequate powers under section 6 of the Act to work out the money paid to promoters for the sweep, because under section 2 of the 1933 Act there are very substantial sums which I believe do not come adequately to his notice. When doing this the Minister might reflect that regardless of the money paid to the hospitals, which has been very useful over the years although it now forms a decreasing percentage of the total amount of money spent on our hospitals, this sweeps operation basically was started by three men with a capital of £4,000 on the basis of which they and their families have made an ascertainable profit of at least £9 million and, at the same time, are threatening massive redundancies on women workers who have very little alternative sources of employment. I ask the Minister to bear all these matters in mind.

May I ask one very important question?

No. The Minister has 15 minutes.

I know arrangements have been made, but I want to ask one urgent question about the prison in Clondalkin. I want the Minister to justify to the House——

The Minister has only 15 minutes.

——why he did not meet a deputation of residents from that area——

Deputy Mitchell should not speak——

Will he meet a deputation after this debate?

The Whips made the arrangement and I must carry it out.

How can the Minister justify the building of that prison——

The Deputy is not entitled to speak at this stage and should not be breaking the agreement reached by the Whips.

I am forced by the Minister's refusal to meet the residents——

I am calling the Minister.

If there is any dissatisfaction with the agreement entered into by the Whips, Deputies would be well advised to talk to their own Whips.

Why not talk to the residents of Clondalkin, Palmerstown and Ballyfermot?

Try to show a little courtesy to the House and to the Chair.

The Minister might show a little courtesy to the residents of Clondalkin.

I will deal with any matter raised here if allowed, but I will not be shouted down——

I am looking forward to the Minister's reply.

If there is dissatisfaction with any agreement freely entered into by the Whips, every Deputy has the right to talk to his own Whip about it. I had nothing to do with any curtailment——

The details of those arrangements are given to the Chair. The Minister has 15 minutes.

The Chair is able to look after himself. I want to put it on record that I had nothing to do with any curtailment or allocation of time here today.

I do not propose, in the limited time available to me, to get bogged down in the statistics with regard to women's prisons which were raised by Deputy Horgan. We have a women's prison which falls far short of the standard I regard as suitable. Every country I know has at least one women's prison and all available evidence suggests that, as time goes on, more and more women will have to be sent to prison in almost all those countries and we have no reason to assume we will escape the problem.

What a cheerful prospect.

Let me reject the suggestion made by Deputy Horgan that the only types of crime for which women are imprisoned in this country are prostitution and shop-lifting. The percentage of women imprisoned within the last six or nine months for those two crimes was about 9 per cent, no more. Women have been imprisoned in recent times for their parts in armed robberies, muggings and fraud. One fraud involved a sum in the region of £70,000.

I have been accused by two Fine Gael Deputies of not having consultations with local groups. As early as 19 January I met a group from the Clondalkin Community Association within one or two weeks of their asking me to meet them. I spent three-and-a-half hours with that group and explained everything fully. I thought I had convinced them that in the interests of society they should do everything they possibly could to get a women's prison under way. I explained that there had been a need for a women's prison for a long time and I was sorry my predecessor was not able to get money from his Government, in which Fine Gael were the senior partner, to do something about this exceptionally serious situation.

The Minister should stand on his own feet.

The Minister has only 15 minutes.

Why does the Minister not talk about previous Ministers?

We had no proposals to build——

The Deputies are like children whose lollipops are being taken from them. Would they give me the courtesy of allowing me to reply to the many allegations they made?

No better man for taking lollipops from children.

Deputy Harte should be prepared to listen.

If I am not allowed to speak I see little point in trying. I have the right to speak but if it is being denied me by those who are posturing about law and order, fair play——

(Interruptions.)

Give me a chance.

If Deputies do not want to listen they should leave the House.

I have not refused to meet anybody from the area where the Wheatfield prison is to be located. Only two or three days ago I asked my private secretary to arrange a meeting with another community group who wish to see me. They are very welcome and I need no urging from Deputy Mitchell or anybody else to meet these people. I have been doing so for a long time, before the Deputy ever graced this House.

The local residents are not under that impression.

I will not fulfil the mopping-up role outlined for me by Deputy Horgan.

I must apologise for having to leave the House. It is not a discourtesy to the Minister.

The Deputy is welcome to come back because I have quite a lot to say in reply to him. Deputy Horgan made serious allegations about somebody interfering in the case of prosecutions against publicans. I understand that notice has been received in my Department of questions for answer by me in this House and I will deal with the matter when those questions are reached. I have no knowledge whatsoever of this matter nor was I involved in any way. I know nothing about it.

I was not accusing the Minister.

I read in some paper recently that in a court in Tralee the excuse offered by some people for being in a publichouse after hours was that they were with Deputy Frank Cluskey and Deputy Eileen Desmond.

They ended up in court.

(Interruptions.)

I must ask somebody on this side of the House to put down a question on that matter. Deputies opposite need a little touch of truth and reality.

I am sorry Deputy Harte has gone because there is nobody whom I like better to hear. He suggested that when I was in Opposition my comments about crime were more hopeful than they are now. Of course I played an important role in this House when we were in Opposition. Crime rates were soaring then even higher than the rate for the first four months of this year. Not once did Deputy Harte voice his support within the House for his Minister who was handcuffed in his efforts to get money from the Coalition. Deputy Harte did nothing to help my predecessor, Senator Cooney, who was in dire straits looking for aid to do a job he was not able to do. The Deputy says that the situation now is urgent. As I said in my opening remarks, I am informed by the Garda that present indications show that the crime rate for the first four months of this year has increased by about 21 per cent over last year. This is not the first time we have had an increase of this nature; an increase of that size took place in 1975 when the Deputy's party were in power.

We are not playing politics. It is the job of the Minister to solve the problem.

No interruptions, please.

The Deputy should have good manners. He is meant to be one of the elite on the front bench and should give good example.

Could I have that in writing?

The Deputy's "holier than thou" contributions will have to be shown to the people for what they are.

The Minister is posturing.

Deputy Keating will remain silent.

The Deputy is one of the best at posturing.

This is an unholy sort of Friday evening. Let us get through the work before the House.

I am truly concerned at the recent upswing in the crime rate about which I have been informed by the Garda authorities. There has been an increase so far this year of 21 per cent, but last year the overall increase was 3 per cent and there was a decrease the year before. Deputy Harte was bleating about more manpower on the streets and I would point out that during my time in office the Government have already provided an additional 1,560 members of the Garda. In the 18 months before the Coalition lost office the total increase in Garda strength was less than 200 at a time when there was a very steep increase in crime rates.

How does the Minister explain the 21 per cent increase?

Deputy Keating will not interrupt.

I will not sit here while the Minister is taking cockshots.

The Deputy's sensitivity is touching but if he wants to lead with his chin he must expect to have his chin tickled.

The Minister is wasting his time in personal abuse.

I believe I have the right to defend myself when I am asked to resign and told that if I were the chairman of a company I would be asked to resign. Am I not to be given that right? The increase in the crime rate is a matter of great concern and about five or six weeks ago on my initiative I called in the Garda Commissioner and discussed the crime situation as I believed it to be following representations by Deputies and particularly after meetings with members of my own party. Following that meeting I discussed the situation at meetings with the Garda Representative Association. Since then I have had a number of meetings, without any urgings from anybody on the other side of the House, with the Garda Commissioner, his deputy commissioners and his full team of assistants. I have put to them the fears expressed to me by community leaders and asked them to draw up a blueprint which they considered would be effective in combating crime. This blueprint is almost ready and I will present it to the Government when it is available. I know my Government will support me and I will not suffer the experience of my predecessor, who was denied help from his Government when he sought support from the Exchequer to implement certain improvements in police work. Deputy Keating was not then a Member of this House but I will remind him of matters which he would wish to forget.

I remember the 21 per cent increase in crime in the first four months of this year.

In 1975 the increase for the country as a whole was 20.7 per cent. The Deputy will see a completely different figure if he compares the increase at the end of this year for the county as a whole with the situation in 1975. The percentages about which we are talking now are in selected Garda districts and are not related to the country as a whole.

The people do not believe the Minister.

I deliberately accuse Deputies Harte and Keating of trying to cause a panic and undermine the morale of the Garda Síochána. They want to say that the Garda cannot compete against the present crime wave. I believe they can and I have every confidence in them. Because of that confidence and the help of the Government the crime wave will be overcome. At the end of this year I will have the greatest satisfaction in answering any parliamentary question the Deputy may care to ask.

It is a pity Deputy Harte is not here because there are some things he needs to understand. I have no role whatsoever in deciding that gardaí should live in the areas where they work. I have nothing to do with it. I have not changed any rules which the Deputy seems to believe were in existence that would insist that members would have to live in the towns and villages in which they worked. There is no change of policy. If the Deputy thinks otherwise I can only tell him he does not know the facts. Deputy Harte stood up in this House, representing Fine Gael, and said there should be no gardaí in the prisons. He made a bald statement without giving any reasons. I should like to tell the Deputy there is a need for gardaí in the Portlaoise Prison as there is in Limerick Prison. Deputy Harte seems to think it the proper course that the gardaí should not be in the prisons, but people who give me professional advice regarding security in the prisons have told me that there is need for a Garda presence there and as long as that advice is given they will remain there.

Deputy Harte also said that gardaí should not be involved in the escorting of money. That is true of his party because when they were in government there was the great train robbery at Sallins, County Kildare. The Fine Gael Minister for Finance and Minister for Justice decided in the interests of economy to take the armed guard from that train bringing money from Cork to Dublin. Perhaps Deputy Harte still believes that policy should be followed, that there should not be an armed guard escorting money——

This is good stuff for an after-Mass meeting.

It is something that Deputy Keating should know. He should not come to this House with his posturing and whitewash, making most serious accusations.

The Minister's lack of composure ill becomes him. Obviously something has got under his skin.

The Deputy should allow the Minister to conclude without interruption.

The Deputy should go back to where he came from.

Will the Minister tell the House if it is proposed to hold a public inquiry into the sweep?

Unlike the Fine Gael speakers, I have every confidence in the competence, energy and drive of the Garda Síochána to deal with the increasing crime rate. I can say something the Deputy cannot say—my Government will support me in helping the Garda Síochána to do the job they want to do. The plans they put to me as Minister for Justice to defeat the criminals will be supported wholeheartedly by this Government.

The Minister did not mention the seven promises in the manifesto. Every one of them was broken.

(Interruptions.)
Vote put and agreed to.
Barr
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