Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 3 May 2023

Vol. 1037 No. 4

Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate

Hospital Facilities

Deputy Martin Browne

We have had this discussion on numerous occasions in recent months. I want answers from the Minister of State, Deputy Butler, this evening because a public meeting is being held in Cashel tomorrow night. The public of the town and the staff in St. Patrick's Hospital deserve answers at this stage. Public representatives belonging to the party of the Minister of State and other Government parties have been giving false information, as far as I am concerned, in Cashel about money being ring-fenced and parking facilities being too small in the area.

Let us get this out there at the start. In 2019, this project went to design stage. Three weeks ago, we were told it was moving along. Now, the unit is being moved out of the grounds of St. Patrick's Hospital, Cashel. Last week, the Minister of State referred to commercially sensitive information. There is none. We were told this at a meeting of the HSE the other day, at which Deputy Mattie McGrath was present. The Government is talking now about a site the HSE owns. I can guarantee it, and I said this to the representatives of the HSE the other day, that no unit will ever go up on that site. I do not even know if the Minister of State knows where the site is located. There is not much more room there for a car, never mind an ambulance or anything like that, to get up to that site. This is all the misinformation that is out there in public. The people of Cashel and County Tipperary deserve better.

Last Friday, we discovered that no cost analysis was done regarding moving this unit from St. Patrick's Hospital. There also seems to be no engineer's report stating this unit is too small. I asked the Minister of State for this review last week, but I have still not got it. There must have been a meeting where it was decided to move the unit out of its current site at St. Patrick's Hospital. These documents have not been forthcoming. What kind of situation is going on in the HSE that meetings seem to be going on where vital decisions are being made about people's lives, but where there are no minutes? We are being told about reports from HIQA, etc., saying that the site is too small and that there is no parking. When St. Patrick's Hospital was going full pelt, there were 300 patients and staff on site and there was never an issue with parking. An issue with parking came up three weeks ago, and that was about the end of it. I will come back in after Deputy Mattie McGrath.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I thank Deputy Martin Browne for letting me share time. We want answers about St. Patrick's Hospital in Cashel. We want reassurance and something definite in respect of this matter.

St. Patrick's Hospital is a wonderful institution. My late mum did some time there. I cannot say enough about the staff and all the people there, including in the chapels and the church. I often attended mass there, when we had a church. We were expecting a 60-bed community unit to be delivered. That is what we were told all the way along at meetings and briefings and everything else, until a bombshell landed two or three weeks ago regarding the site now being too small. This is simply not true. I cannot use the word "lie" here, but this is a porky of the highest order. As Deputy Martin Browne said, there were 350 staff and patients there, many of them driving, and there was plenty of room for parking. I ask the Minister of State to pick some other issue besides this one.

Something else is going on here. The Minister of State closed the beautiful hospital in Carrick-on-Suir. It was shocking to do that to a community hospital with three hospice beds. I am worried too now about there being plenty of hospital beds in University Hospital Waterford. I worry because we were told the other day we are in competition now with Dungarvan, if you do not mind, for this community hospital. I am watching this matter very carefully. The Minister of State should not dare to take this facility out of County Tipperary, because it is needed. The community hospital is needed and the staff and everybody else is committed to it. Cashel lost too much back in the 1980s, when it lost to Clonmel, as well as the last time. It is not going to lose this time. The people there are ready for the Minister of State.

It has been stated that the greenfield site is suitable. It is not, and it is not accessible. We have a site. Just let us build on it. This is a listed building but it can be easily adapted. There was no problem before with engineers' reports or anything else. Costings in this regard have not even been done. What the Minister of State is overseeing in the HSE, along with the Minister, Deputy Stephen Donnelly, and the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, is nothing short of outrageous. I refer to officials being able to do what they like and tell us what they want anytime they like and different stories then being presented by politicians from the Minister of State's party. This is just not acceptable. The people of Cashel deserve this facility and they are going to get it.

Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Mary Butler)

I thank Deputies Martin Browne and Mattie McGrath for the opportunity to update the House on the new 60-bed community nursing unit in Cashel. I hope we are not going to make a political football out of a good news story.

The HSE is committed to the development of a new community nursing unit for older persons in Cashel. In early 2016, a capital programme for older persons residential centres was developed in response to the introduction of HIQA's national residential care standards. To date, 43 of these centres have been delivered. Both Deputies will be well aware that a centre is under construction in Clonmel and that we are going to build one in Cashel.

In 2019, the HSE engaged a design team, as the Deputy said, to progress a new 60-bed community nursing unit project on the site of St. Patrick's Hospital, Cashel. A design was completed in 2019, which was brought through stage one design, that showed a detailed layout to the rear of the site. This accommodated the 60 beds. This site, however, is very limited in size, with challenges regarding the number of parking spaces and access to the building.

The emergence of the Covid-19 pandemic in March 2020 interrupted work on this project. As a response to Covid-19 risks, upgrade works were carried out to make facilities located on the campus of the nearby Our Lady's Hospital, Cashel, suitable for long-stay residential use. Residents from St. Patrick's Hospital were moved to facilities on the Our Lady's Hospital campus in June 2020. HIQA registers all community nursing units for a three-year period. Six months prior to the registration expiring, a community nursing unit is obliged to submit an application to reregister the facility. This process is being undertaken with HIQA by Cashel residential older persons services to ensure reregistration for another three years from June 2023. This is to ensure continuity while the new community nursing unit is being built. An assessment and rehabilitation unit, and a day hospital for older persons services, continue to operate at St. Patrick's Hospital.

Many of the vacated areas of St. Patrick's Hospital have been refurbished to accommodate children's therapy services. In addition, it is planned to locate enhanced community care, ECC, services at the rear of the site at St. Patrick's Hospital, Cashel. Site options for the new 60-bed unit for Cashel are under consideration. A HSE-owned site in Cashel town is being reviewed by HSE estates for suitability for a new community nursing unit. Representatives of HSE estates have advised that this site review should be completed in the coming weeks. We can discuss this issue again then. A final decision has not formally been made on sites because optimum solutions for the provision of the services are still being appraised.

To put the concerns of both Deputies to bed, the capital plan will be launched in the next couple of weeks. I have seen it. The new community nursing unit for Cashel is included in it, in appendix 2, to go to the detailed design stage. It is there in black and white. No one intends not to build this community nursing unit run by the HSE in Cashel. What HSE estates is examining now is where this unit might be located. I said at the start of my reply that I hope this issue does not become a political football. I say this because the last thing I want to see is the new community nursing unit being held up in Cashel because the Deputies are arguing over the site. It is not up to politicians to determine where the nursing home will be built. The most important thing for me is that the community nursing home which will have 60 beds en suite in Cashel, which I know is needed, is built as soon as possible. The one in Clonmel and the crisis house there will both be finished next year.

Many community nursing units are currently being built. As I said, we have built 43 so far, and Cashel is next on the list. Nobody is going to stop the unit in Cashel from being built. A community nursing unit will be built in Cashel.

Deputy Martin Browne

I do not accept what the Minister of State has said. The only ones playing political football are local representatives belonging to the Government. They are on local radio and other media looking for special meetings with the Minister of State. She said the HSE has committed to the development of a new community nursing unit for older persons in Cashel. I received a reply to a parliamentary question on 9 March 2023 stating that the HSE continues to review options regarding the development of a new community nursing home in Cashel. Only a month and a half ago, it said it is reviewing the situation.

Deputy Mary Butler

It is reviewing the site.

Deputy Martin Browne

When will the design stage finish? We were told recently that funding depends on the design stage. When did the issues with the suitability of the site first emerge? Will reports that back up the HSE's decision that the St. Patrick's site is too small be provided? Do they even exist? How much has been spent on the preliminary stages of St. Patrick's to date? How far along are negotiations on the greenfield site? Can any indication be given to us as to how close to the town the greenfield site is? Will the Minister of State give a commitment that other services such as the assessment unit and rehabilitation services are not lost in a couple of months' time?

Deputy Mattie McGrath

The Minister of State is the only one who has dropped the ball, whether it is ludo, draughts or poker. The stakes are high for the people in Cashel. As we heard from Deputy Browne, it is the HSE that is engaged in subterfuge and causing people to have a belief with the different answers it gives. Is there no joined-up thinking in the HSE? There is none whatsoever. We receive replies to parliamentary questions, one of the strongest mechanisms we have at our disposal in the Dáil. We are holding the Minister of State to account. We want this facility built in Cashel. She and the HSE are the ones who two weeks ago introduced a different site. We are not playing football with any sites. We have a site on St Patrick's. I told the Minister of State that my mother was there. I was at many Christmas parties, masses and functions and visited people there. It is fully functional and could fit 350 staff, plus patients. It is a red herring to say the site does not have space for parking.

Deputy Mary Butler

The HSE is committed to the development of a new community nursing unit for Cashel. Provision has been made in the capital programme 2023 to progress a 60-bed community nursing unit for Cashel. I cannot be clearer. A HSE-owned site in Cashel is being reviewed by the HSE for suitability.

Deputy Martin Browne

It is not suitable

Deputy Mary Butler

The review is expected to be completed in the coming weeks and we will then look at it. Services are still being provided in St. Patrick's Hospital Cashel. An assessment and rehabilitation unit and a day hospital for older persons services continue to operate. It is planned to include new interim enhanced community care in St. Patrick's Hospital, which will be a welcome addition to the provision of healthcare in Cashel.

The intention of the HSE is that a new community nursing unit will be built in Cashel, like the one currently being built in Clonmel, which comprises 50 en-suite bedrooms. The unit in Cashel will comprise 60 en-suite bedrooms. All current residents of the Our Lady's campus will transfer to the new unit when it is completed.

A final decision has not been formally made and site options are still being appraised to identify an optimum service solution for service provision. However, the building of a new community nursing unit in Cashel is a service priority for capital plans. As I said, it is in the capital plan and funding will be provided. It will be a focus throughout 2023. There is no suggestion that there will not be a community nursing unit built in Cashel.

Deputy Martin Browne

The parliamentary reply we got a month and a half ago-----

Deputy Mary Butler

I am entitled to answer under Standing Orders. There will be a community nursing unit built in Cashel. The HSE is currently appraising a couple of sites and will have a report in the next few weeks. There will be a community nursing unit constructed in Cashel, comprising 60 en-suite bedrooms, to support older people in the area.

Water Services

Deputy Aindrias Moynihan

For well over ten years, the wastewater treatment plant in Cluain na Croise in Crossbarry has been malfunctioning and it is causing huge difficulty for locals. As far back as 2016, the plant was one of only half a dozen that the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications was advancing through a pilot scheme to resolve defective developer-led infrastructure. Unfortunately, Crossbarry was the only village in the original pilot scheme that did not advance to construction. A new resolution programme was developed, based around the pilot, to resolve issues with defective developer-led infrastructure such as in Crossbarry. Cork County Council put forward the Cluain na Croise plant to be dealt with. It was part of the Department's new scheme.

Unfortunately, there has been back-and-forth and questions and answers over recent years. It is very frustrating for locals not seeing the Crossbarry wastewater treatment plant being repaired. Many smaller plants have been advanced through the Department's programme which have overtaken Crossbarry, and more luck to them because they were needed. So too is the plant in Cluain na Croise in Crossbarry. It has been very difficult for residents who have put up with blocked sewers, foul smells and overflows that the council has to repeatedly clean up. It is very unfair on locals. This needs to be resolved.

Householders are concerned. They want to see a pathway to resolving this issue so they can move on with their lives and know that the defective treatment plant at the end of the village will be fixed. Resolving the plant in Cluain na Croise and linking it to the other defective plants in the village would have many benefits. There is the obvious environmental benefit in repairing the plant and improving water quality, but there is also a demand for housing locally. Crossbarry is a desirable place to live. It has easy access to Cork and Bandon and nearby work in Brinny. It has good schools and a strong community spirit. It is an attractive place to live.

There are zoned lands in the village, but in the absence of the treatment plant they are not accessible. It is not just a nuisance on its own. There is a huge struggle for locals getting houses. They have contacted me about getting planning permission for one-off houses or even sewer connections in the absence of the plant. Repairing the defective plant and linking it to the other malfunctioning plants around the village makes sense in terms of unlocking the opportunity, removing the major nuisance and improving water quality.

Similar plants have been advanced, which plug into the Uisce Éireann network and remove the temporary plants. Crossbarry is a much larger scheme and could be a destination for all of the other plants in the village, linking the likes of Lissagroom Meadows and other homes and businesses. It could unlock zoned ground. Some of the infrastructure is already in the ground.

Over the years, I have been in constant contact with Cork County Council as it is trying to deal with the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications and, to a lesser extent, Uisce Éireann in order to advance Crossbarry. Time and again, the council is asked the same questions. It has been very forthcoming with answers. There have been no questions for some months and the Department's expert group should have all the data needed to make a positive decision.

The Minister of State will recall that when the Department put in place a programme in 2018 and 2019, it was based on the lessons learned from the pilot scheme. Despite that, Crossbarry still does not appear to have advanced. How could that be? Why is Crossbarry being left for so long? What can be done to get the malfunctioning plant sorted, get rid of the nuisance and give locals in Crossbarry a chance to get on with their lives?

Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage (Deputy Malcolm Noonan)

A small number of housing estates nationally rely on developer-provided water services infrastructure, commonly referred to as DPI, for their water services. The infrastructure concerned mainly consists of wastewater treatment facilities, with a small number providing drinking water services for the estate. The majority of estates with DPI are legacy issues from the mid-1990s to the mid-2000s. The infrastructure was generally provided by the developer of the estate and is not connected to the public water network of Uisce Éireann. It is important to say that DPI are privately owned, with many coming to the end of their useful life.

The Department provides funding to progressively resolve these legacy issues through the multi-annual developer-provided water services infrastructure resolution programme. The purpose of the programme is to progressively resolve the DPI in estates such as Gleann Alainn, Cluain na Croise, Cul na Greine and Lissagroom Meadows in Crossbarry. It is worth noting that the type of estates involved are not all the same and that there are different solutions required to resolve the DPI issues involved.

The housing estates range from those located in towns where the solution is to connect directly to the Uisce Éireann network to those that are in remote locations where connecting to the public network may not be possible and where solutions can be considerably more complex, as the Deputy will appreciate. The funding allocated to date under the programme has been to estates where the resolution is to connect to the public network.

The Minister has also announced a number of demonstration projects, including one in Crossbarry, where the locations are remote from the public network. At present, Crossbarry does not have a public collection and central wastewater treatment system. Instead, wastewater from the four housing estates in the village is collected and treated by means of a separate DPI. The solution to the DPI issues in Crossbarry is complex in nature, and the options were fully considered by an independent expert panel. The most appropriate resolution is a stand-alone treatment system that will also benefit the village. The Deputy pointed out the potential knock-on benefits to the expansion of the village and development generally. The points made in this regard are very important. The Department engaged with Uisce Éireann and Cork County Council in developing a solution including certainty around the cost that will fully resolve the DPI issues in Crossbarry. The Minister expects to receive a final submission from the panel shortly. He will then be in a position to make an announcement on funding allocations for locations, including Crossbarry.

It is important to state that Uisce Éireann must be fully on board with any proposed solutions when it comes to DPI because it has responsibility to operate and maintain any new infrastructure when projects are completed.

Deputy Aindrias Moynihan

It is positive that the expert group is due to report shortly on this issue. We know from all of the exchanges with Cork County Council that it has been very forthcoming in making responses available. We need the response of the expert panel to be positive and to set out a clear pathway. Nobody is expecting a scheme to appear overnight. There is considerable work involved, and we need that expert group to set out a clear pathway and timeframe for how the issue will be resolved in order that residents can get on with their lives. A serious concern is that the expert group will come back with further questions, which would be unreasonable at this point, given there has been so much back-and-forth over a number of years. This scheme was designed in the context of lessons that were learned from the original pilot. Crossbarry was the only project that did not advance. Whatever is put in place should suit Crossbarry's needs. It is considerably important that we get from the expert group's response a clear pathway of where things are going to go from here

The Minister of State referred to Irish Water and the need to have it-----

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

Fully on board.

Deputy Aindrias Moynihan

That is almost like a code for a veto. We do not want Irish Water to be stopping this. It needs to happen and Irish Water needs to be on board. We cannot have the Department saying "Yes" and moving on with matters and then another entity getting in the way. Irish Water needs to be on board and should not, in any way, have a veto. Irish Water needs to be on board and get on with it. We ask that a clear pathway be set out for the benefit of the people of Crossbarry.

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

The Deputy is correct. That is certainly what the Department, the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, and I want to achieve. A multi-annual programme is in place to assist bringing resolution in respect of DPI. Such infrastructure is a temporary, short-term solution that dragged. We are conscious that the issues with DPI need to be resolved from the point of view of the environmental benefits to the communities and the future development of places such as Crossbarry. We are committed to resolving these issues. Our understanding is that the expert panel will make its final submission on the specific application and the Minister will be in a position to make a decision on that.

It is important that Uisce Éireann is on board with these proposals because they offer a longer term solution for the estates we have mentioned and for places such as Crossbarry that need to develop, evolve and move on. DPI offers a temporary solution. From an environmental point of view, DPI is far from ideal. It is critically important that the issues relating to it are resolved.

Disability Services

Deputy David Stanton

I thank the Office of the Ceann Comhairle and the Leas-Cheann Comhairle for selecting this matter and I thank the Minister of State for being here.

I have raised this matter on a few occasions already as a Topical Issue, at committee meetings and in four parliamentary questions. The matter is fairly straightforward. We are dealing with a couple of young adults who have intellectual disabilities. One set of parents in particular has been in contact. Their girl has Down's syndrome. She is gorgeous, lovely and fun-loving and wants to get on. She will leave secondary school next September in Midleton, my town, and she wants to go to a training centre in Bonnington, in Cork city. The centre operates out of two different locations. The challenge is that while the young woman in question is very capable, she is not capable enough to use public transport to get from her home to the relevant location. I know she has disability allowance and other payments, but they are not enough. She cannot go on her own. She has to be accompanied and looked after to get there. When she gets there, she is happy. She will get on with her day's work and training and will be very happy. A number of other families are in the same position.

I am told that there was a service prior to Covid and now the HSE is telling us there is no money. Cope Foundation is telling us that there is no money. When I raised this with the Minister of State in March, I was told:

While day service funding does not include transport, some transport supports are provided by the HSE or funded agencies on a discretionary basis, and a variety of transport solutions are pursued in different community healthcare organisation, CHO, areas.

That is not the case in my area. It is kind of pot luck and ad hoc as to whether one will get a service. The number of young people involved here is very small and we need a national policy. This young woman, who is not a child any more, has an intellectual disability and needs to go a fair distance. Another issue is that the service should be closer to her home, but it is not. She would have to get on a bus and get off at the other end, where she may be vulnerable, and get a second bus. This is possibly beyond her capabilities. She may get confused, lost or worse. We need a service. I raised this matter previously on Questions on Policy or Legislation. Quite interestingly, the Minister informed me that a personal assistance, PA, service could perhaps be put in place. Somebody could travel with these young people to make sure they get from A to B safely; that is all we need. Once they get to where they are supposed to go, they will be fine.

The parents of these people love them deeply. They care and want the best for them. When the number is quite small, it would be quite possible. We are told that we have more money than we know what to do with at present. This is one small area. It would not cost a whole lot to ensure that a secure service that was there prior to Covid could be put in place again on a national basis, on foot of a policy direction from the Department and the Minister. I have raised this four or five times before. I know the Minister of State has convened a transport committee. I have not seen its report yet. I believe it is somewhere and maybe the Minister of State can send it to me. It may have addressed this. I brought this up at a committee meeting a little while ago and was informed that there is considerable concern. Everybody wants to do the right thing here.

I have raised this matter with other Ministers, as I was advised to do, but I am not getting anywhere with it. I am back to the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, who is on top of her brief. Having been a Minister of State, I know what it is like. The Minister of State is on top of her brief and she is working very hard. If anyone can sort this problem, she can.

Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Anne Rabbitte)

I thank Deputy Stanton for raising this important matter. I acknowledge that this is an area in which the Deputy has particular interest. The Deputy is no different from me in that, as someone who represents a rural constituency, he understands completely the challenges parents of this young lady and others have come to him about. The Deputy previously asked about difficulties young people may have in attending training centres and places of employment. I responded that a PA service may be of benefit. I wish to clarify that I was speaking specifically of the provision of PA support, which the Deputy has raised here, in circumstances where young people are attending further or higher education. I agree with the Deputy in that, unfortunately, geography and pot luck are sometimes the case.

The Deputy is asking for the reinstatement of this service. He is also right - this is not stated in the notes - that I reconvened the relevant committee and had officials from all Departments attend it. What was very interesting was that while we say within the HSE that we do not provide transport to attend services, we spend €40 million on transport annually. The HSE spends €40 million in supporting young people to attend their day services.

In some areas the HSE works very closely with the provider, particularly where young people have left post-primary education to get them into a routine, establish a pathway for attending the service and put in place a comfort zone for the family. At a minimum, whatever the comfort zone is for that young person to attend should be put in place. Some people will thrive on it and expand on it, and once they find their way, they will not need the PA support. They do not need that extra bit that might be required. In some cases, it will not work for them at all and they will continue to need it but that can never be tested unless we try it out first. The Deputy is asking that it be reinstated in order that we can provide support.

I should also note that, in general, day-service users are in receipt of the disability allowance and are automatically entitled to the free travel pass. I am aware that the Deputy has raised a specific area but in all cases it is not appropriate that the free travel pass would work. The issue of transport to day services is acknowledged by the HSE and my new Department, the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. It is also recognised that without this support, many people with disabilities would not be able to access services. The HSE and service providers work very hard every year at a local level to source transport solutions for adult day-service users. Where it is identified that there is a need and a risk, it is essential a solution is found.

The HSE has also been working with the National Transport Authority, NTA, on this issue of transport to day services through the open routes project. Open routes is based on the idea that transport to HSE services, such as day services, would be best served by accessible local transport such as Local Link transporting people to their day service but also servicing the wider local community as well as enhanced public transport provision. This approach is being piloted in County Leitrim. While it is a step change and going in the right direction, I encourage the Department of Transport to accelerate its roll-out. It will not work for all, however. The NTA has advised that the integrated pilot project was developed in close collaboration with the HSE with a revised network that is designed to meet the needs of mainstream public transport users as well as the transport needs of passengers with disabilities and those accessing healthcare.

Deputy David Stanton

I thank the Minister of State for her response. I acknowledge the good work being done and the efforts being made by all the agencies across the board. However, what can I say to Orla and her parents for next September? Orla is a young woman with Down's syndrome. She needs to have support to get from A to B. Even though she would like to change buses, she is very vulnerable; she is very trusting. I am sure the Minister of State realises what I am talking about here. Her parents want the best for her. They brought her so far.

Obviously, the centre is a good deal away from her home. The Minister of State might consider having these centres more local, which would solve many problems. These young people need to travel into a city from a rural area. For a certain number of days a week, they go to one centre and on other days they go to a different centre under the auspices of Cope Foundation, which is doing great work as well. This issue comes down to a very moot point. This young woman cannot travel safely on her own unsupervised from A to B. Her parents are concerned. They are looking for a response. They are looking for support. They are looking for an answer. Both of them are working every day and they cannot afford to spend the time bringing their daughter from A to B. They would if they could, but it would mean giving up their jobs. They cannot do that. Next September, she will be leaving secondary school in her own town, where she got on very well, and is moving into the training centre to continue her career. The alternative is for her to stay at home, which would mean she would not get out at all and would be very detrimental. The Minister of State may not have a response now. I support her in the work she is doing and in arriving at a solution.

As I said, the number of young people affected by this nationally is quite small. Not everybody wants this kind of support. However, in my area I know of at least four families who do. Perhaps the Minister of State can give this some thought. I would be happy to organise a meeting with her and maybe even arrange a deputation of parents to meet the Minister of State to bring everyone around the table, talk this through and see if it can be resolved. It would make a massive difference to the family and to Orla.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

I certainly will meet a deputation and would have officials from my office there along with representatives from the HSE. There is no point in us talking unless we are going to have a meeting to find a solution. I absolutely believe the solution can be found. I say to Orla, her parents and her friends that Deputy Stanton has raised this matter and it is on my radar. I want to find a solution for them and we will find a solution. Orla needs to continue on to the next level, no different from any other child. She has the right to participate in rehabilitative training. She has the right to learn the next level of skill. She has that right to rattle around Midleton like anybody else, to be comfortable and to be known.

We will also work with Cope Foundation. There is no better person than Seán Abbott to tell either of us what he needs to make it work. When he tells us that, I think we will find a solution. I know the geography and I accept it is a challenge to travel in that distance. We need to see what more we can do to support Cope Foundation to expand that. Maybe there will be a lot of solutions found but the most important thing is that Orla will be able to go to day services and she and her friends will be able to go together. Between us, Cope Foundation and the HSE, we will find a solution to give peace of mind to her parents.

Social Welfare Benefits

Deputy Violet-Anne Wynne

I wish to speak on the household benefits package, in particular the energy allowances aspect. As the Minister of State knows, the household benefits package is a set of allowances to help with the cost of living, specifically electricity or gas costs. The package is available to those aged 70 and over and to some aged under 70 in certain circumstances - those on disability allowance or carer's allowance who are living with the person they care for, to name but a few. The package is available to our most vulnerable citizens and that needs to be stated from the outset. We know that cold homes are associated with worsening health conditions and, sadly, with poor mental health. Our most vulnerable should never be left facing a choice between heating and eating. That is a society that we all wish to live in.

The electricity or gas allowance has a value of €1.15 per day and is payable monthly to the equivalent of €8.05 per week. In 1968, the original electricity gas allowance came into effect and allowed for 100 free units every two months. It was then benchmarked to the number of units of electricity or gas consumed. Most important, the value of the payment rose in tandem with price changes. In 2008, the allowance covered 2,400 units per year, which, unfortunately, was lowered to 1,800 units in 2011. Significantly, in 2013 the whole structure of the allowance was changed from a set number of units to a cash amount, which, as I mentioned, equated to only €8.05 per week. At the time, it was argued that this approach would encourage people to switch energy provider, giving them bargaining power, for example. However, that does not account for the change in value to the person in receipt of the package.

The major disadvantage of decoupling the allowance from units is that during periods of price increases, the real value of the allowance is significantly reduced in terms of its purchasing power. This year, we have seen hyperinflation and many families have entered energy poverty, spending more than 10% of their income on their electricity bills. This is likely to continue and be further exacerbated by fossil fuels through the transition to a low-carbon economy.

I acknowledge, as I am sure the Minister of State will, the Government's extension of the fuel allowance to more people through the new threshold and the various cost-of-living payments over the past year. Obviously, any help and support for our most venerable is welcome. However, it was a small glimmer of hope in a black hole of despair of rising costs that seemed to be everywhere because they were affecting our most basic essentials. The electricity allowance of €8.05 per week has not increased in ten years and it is now worth 29% less than it was in 2013 due to the higher cost of electricity. Similarly, the gas allowance is worth 22% less than it was in 2013. It is a desperate state of affairs.

I cannot help but question how we got here and how it got this bad. Last year, Age Action Ireland put together an energy guarantee for older persons and I commend it on the great work done there. It proposed an energy guarantee for older persons which would be a cash payment but one which would be set against an objective benchmark in respect of units of energy. The aim should be to assist all recipients to obtain their basic need for adequate home heating with the exact amount of the payment to be calculated based on their household income and their homes' building energy rating, BER, housing type and fuel source. The value of the new cash payment should be indexed against market energy prices in order that if it rises or falls, the value of the payment continues to provide the same quantity of energy in kilowatt-hours in order that everyone - people with disabilities, carers, etc. - can always meet their basic home heating needs. On behalf of Age Action Ireland and the 500,000 households who are 30% worse off than they were under this payment ten years ago, I ask the Minister to consider this proposal for budget 2024.

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Teachta as an gceist seo. The household benefits package comprises the electricity or gas allowance and the free television licence. The Department of Social Protection will spend approximately €285 million this year on the household benefits package for more than 510,000 customers and their households.

The household benefits package is available to those aged 70 or over, regardless of means and household composition and subject to one package per household. It is also available as a supplementary allowance to those in receipt of various social welfare payments, including but not limited to carer's allowance, State contributory pension, State non-contributory pension and widow's-widower's or surviving civil partner's contributory pension. While there has been no recent increase to the gas-electricity element of the household benefits package, the Government instead has targeted resources available to it towards increases to core social welfare payments and to more targeted payments such as the fuel allowance.

It is important to note that these targeted increases were informed by the Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI, research, which indicated that certain household types, such as those living alone, were at a higher risk of poverty than other households.

During the period referred to by the Deputy, the living alone increase, which is an extra payment for people who are living alone and receiving certain social welfare payments, has increased from €7.70 to €22 per week, an almost tripling of the weekly rate. Also, during that period, the weekly rate of the fuel allowance payment has increased by 65% from €20 to €33 a week. There has also been significant expansion of the fuel allowance qualifying criteria, and in budget 2023 the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, announced the largest ever expansion of the fuel allowance criteria.

From January 2023, a new fuel allowance means threshold was introduced for people aged 70 years and over. The new means threshold is €500 for a single person and €1,000 for a couple. Under the formula used to assess means for the fuel allowance for over-70s, the threshold for capital that is disregarded in the assessment was increased from €20,000 to €50,000. The weekly means threshold for those aged under 70 was increased by €80 to €200 above the appropriate rate of the contributory State pension.

Similarly, the allowable means for household benefits purposes for those aged between 66 and 69 not in receipt of a qualifying payment was also increased by €80 to €200 above the appropriate rate of the contributory State pension.

The Government is also aware of the increased cost of living and, in budget 2023, has provided an unprecedented response that aims to ease the financial pressure on households throughout the State. Government cost-of-living measures included a cost-of-living double payment paid to social protection recipients in October. A €200 lump sum payment was paid to pensioners and people with a disability receiving the living alone increase in November. A €500 cost-of-living payment was paid to people receiving carer's support grant, disability allowance, invalidity pension, blind pension and to those in receipt of working family payment. A €400 additional lump sum payment was paid to all households in receipt of the fuel allowance payment and a double month of child benefit was paid. In December, a Christmas bonus double payment was paid to 1.3 million social protection recipients. From January 2023, the maximum rate of core social welfare rates was increased and there were also increases to the qualified adult and qualified child rates. The enhanced electricity credit of €600 is another important Government measure to help mitigate the effects of the recent unprecedented rise in electricity prices.

Many of those in receipt of the household benefits package will also have benefited from these supports, which must be looked at in the round. All further measures, including any proposal to increase the electricity allowance as part of the household benefits package would only be considered while taking account of overall Government policy and budgetary considerations.

Deputy Violet-Anne Wynne

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire Stáit. This still does not account for the fact that this package has not been increased since 2013. There has been no increase for people even though we are experiencing hyperinflation. This is not lost on the public but I thank the Minister of State. As I said, this proposal from Age Action Ireland for an energy guarantee for older persons is very well put together and I advise him in the strongest possible terms to review it with a view to implementing it.

Another group I spoke to about this issue was the Society of St. Vincent de Paul in Clare. It mentioned that it wanted to see the introduction of a choice between the cash payment or the units offered to people. This is a common-sense approach and allows for people to decide what works best for them and for their circumstances. We know that the one-size-fits-all approach is not working. If people want the cash payment for bargaining power, or if they would rather keep the units offered and for it to go directly to the provider, so be it.

Another consideration I would like to raise with the Minister of State are the standing charges as part of the energy allowances in the household benefits package. As I said, the payment has not gone up in ten years and the people in receipt of it are roughly 30% worse off than they were ten years ago. What has gone up in that intervening time, however, are the standing charges which all of these providers have been charging their customers. The current household benefits package simply does not accommodate some of the eye-watering standing charges being imposed on customers by their providers and if the Minister of State does nothing else on foot of this Topical Issue matter, I encourage him to close that gap by any means possible.

We all know from the household bills how inflated the standing and hidden charges have become, but in rural Ireland we are paying an average of €35 more in standing charges to the ESB in the year than our counterparts in more urban areas. When rural Ireland says it is forgotten about or when the Dáil does not see beyond the M50, eyes can no longer roll. One can understand that sentiment when one can see clearly that those in receipt of this package are worse off than they were ten years ago. However, that is exacerbated further by the very fact of living in a rural area.

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Teachta arís. To reiterate, the Minister certainly gives consideration to proposals by the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, Age Action and other agencies in her work in trying to ensure those most vulnerable are supported in the best way possible. That is what the Government is trying to achieve and the ESRI has supported the direction we have taken as being the correct one with regard to targeting the supports we have put in place. The Government provided very significant funding to meet the overall increase in the cost of living through the budget 2023 package. It is the largest amount ever in a range of one-off necessary measures, and they were necessary. It was important we did that.

I reassure the House that the Government will keep the evolving situation under close review and will monitor the effects of those measures in the short to medium term. Underlining the Government's continuing commitment to address the increased cost of living being experienced by people, an additional €260 million social welfare package was paid to families, pensioners, carers and people with disabilities last week. I reiterate that the Department of Social Protection provides a number of more targeted payments to help people with their household costs, including the fuel allowance, the living alone allowance and the telephone support allowance. I would especially like to highlight that the Department of Social Protection operates an additional needs payment as part of the supplementary welfare allowance scheme, where people have an urgent need which they cannot meet from their own resources.

The Deputy raised an important issue but I believe the Government has responded and is continuing to respond in an evolving situation. It is fluctuating quite a good deal but it is important we do this. Obviously, I cannot pre-empt what is going to be in the budget package for 2024 but the Minister has been very progressive in trying to address those most in need and the most vulnerable households through this very difficult and challenging time.

Cuireadh an Dáil ar athló ar 8.29 p.m. go dtí 10.30 a.m., Déardaoin, an 4 Bealtaine 2023.

The Dáil adjourned at 8.29 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 4 May 2023.