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Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 24 Oct 2017

Renewable Energy Directive: Discussion

Before we begin, I remind members, witnesses and those in the Public Gallery to make sure that their mobile telephones are completely turned off.

We are here today to discuss the proposed renewable energy directive, RED II, 2020-2030. I welcome from Ethanol Europe Renewables Limited, Mr. James Cogan, industry and policy adviser, and Ms Esme O'Connell, research and liaison officer, from the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment, Mr. Kevin Brady, principal officer, and Mr. Des Byrne, higher executive officer, and from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Mr. Jack Nolan, senior inspector, and Dr. Eugene Hendrick, senior inspector. I thank them all for coming here today to discuss the proposed renewable energy directive.

Before we begin, I draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

We will now hear a presentation from Mr. James Cogan which will be followed by one from the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment, as it is the lead Department in this particular matter. I invite Mr. James Cogan to make his opening statement.

Mr. James Cogan

I thank the Chairman, Deputy Pat Deering, and the committee members for inviting Ethanol Europe Renewables Limited to address the committee. As a member of the European Council, Ireland is currently deliberating on the recast Renewable Energy Directive, RED II, which is due to be finalised early in 2018. The stated goals of RED II are carbon reductions, energy independence and sustainable economic development. It is our view that the new directive should maintain and build on current targets for renewable energy in the transport sector. We also believe that it should allow safe effective European crop-based biofuels to contribute fully within this target, as such biofuels greatly contribute to the stated goals with no adverse side effects.

Ethanol Europe Renewables Limited is an Irish firm that produces the bioethanol used in petrol blending in Ireland and Europe. Our product helps countries reduce greenhouse gas emissions in transport and comply with their climate and energy commitments. Ethanol is made by converting the starch and sugar in grain and sugar beet crops into alcohol. Both European ethanol and its diesel counterpart that is made from rapeseed and sunflower oil are central to the health of the farm sector. Biofuels and agriculture are two sides of the same coin and legislation concerning biofuels should treat them as such.

Europe's tillage farmers now depend on biofuels for nearly €7 billion of annual income. That means €2,000 or more per annum for every tillage farmer in the Union. It is also the equivalent to over 10% of total Common Agricultural Policy, CAP, payments. The benefit accrues to all farmers in the form of a more robust demand for crops. There is no doubt that if biofuels demand were to increase our farmers could readily supply the additional crop volumes from existing land without unwanted knock-on effects.

An additional €10 billion to €15 billion go to rural economies in the form of salaries, tax payments and service purchases at the biorefineries that process the crops. Our plant alone has resulted in 2,000 new jobs since 2012, a tripling of the local authority tax takes and a rejuvenation of the surrounding region. As many as 200 other communities around Europe have benefitted similarly. Ireland could have several such biorefineries that process grain, beet and oilseed. It is not too late and the rationale is stronger than ever.

As an integral part of the production process the EU biofuels sector produces some 17 million tonnes of GMO-free protein-rich animal feed annually. This is very valuable for Irish livestock producers and serves markets that demand the traceability of GMO-free produce. Without the co-produced biofuel sharing the costs to produce a domestic animal feed then the feed would not be viable. Our firm is leading the way in the production of ever higher quality feed under the Pannonia Gold brand.

The market for biofuels exists solely due to climate legislation. The fossil oil industry would not consent to new entries to the sector otherwise. There are three key legislative questions in the RED II directive. First, the current 10% target for renewable energy in transport. This target is the bedrock of climate legislation in transport today and hence the demand for European crops. The draft directive of the European Commission proposes dropping the target. Fuel distributors could dispense with biofuels in their petrol and diesel blends, which would result in a loss of farm incomes, rural employment and GMO-free animal feed. It would result in more climate-damaging fossil oil on the roads too. Seven countries led by the Visegrád group have signed a declaration appealing to the Council to take proper account of the impact on farmers. Ireland and the Visegrád group are strong allies when it comes to trade talks that threaten farm livelihoods. RED II merits a similar unity. Therefore, the 10% target should be retained and built on.

Second, in RED II, there is a 7% cap on crop-based biofuels that the Commission draft would see dropped to 3.8% on a path to a total ban. This new cap might be reasonable if it applied only to biofuels that do not contribute to the climate, energy security and economic development goals of RED II or, indeed, if it applied only to biofuels that bring adverse side effects. However, it applies equally to safe effective biofuels.

The reasons the Commission cited for imposing the 7% cap in the first place, namely, land grabs and food price hikes, have been shown to be baseless in the case of EU-sourced crop biofuels, and in the case of the new lower cap the new reasons are likewise baseless. The 7% cap should not be lowered for safe and effective biofuels.

Third, there is the opportunity to introduce standards to allow safe and effective crop biofuels be used above the 7% cap while barring the damaging biofuels which are easily identified and isolated. The Commission’s draft does not apply such standards. Standards should be introduced in RED II as crop-based biofuels represent the most cost-effective measure for decarbonising the transport sector during the period that will be required for electrical vehicles to replace the fleet.

As investors, our confidence was sorely rattled by the Brussels U-turn in transport renewables legislation since 2009 when the 10% target was put in place and then immediately put back on the table for amendment by way of this indiscriminate cap on crop-based biofuel. We cancelled our second biorefinery project, and several more as well, even though building works were already under way. The draft RED II assumes that hundreds of new investors will be found to build new biofuels factories for advanced biofuels that do not use conventional farm crops, but there is no evidence that investor confidence will be restored to even the slightest degree. In the lead-up to 2009, there were hundreds of biofuels business plans under evaluation in Europe. In the lead-up to 2018, there is none. Let us not throw away the European crop-based biofuels that give high greenhouse gas savings without adverse side effects. They are here already and are cost-effective. They will be needed in Ireland’s, and indeed the EU's, climate programme.

A consensus has developed over the past six months that the draft RED II is based on an incomplete analysis. The Commission’s regulatory scrutiny board twice issued a negative opinion on it and, indeed, there was no third opinion. The Impact Assessment Institute in Brussels found that "the policy to cap food-based biofuels for transport was assumed without supporting analysis". Likewise, the Cologne-based Nova Institute in September found that "the systematic discrimination against first generation biofuels of the current Commission proposal is in no way founded on scientific evidence". Finally, a few weeks ago the European Court of Auditors published a review in which it said "evidence based policy making" has become the second biggest challenge for achieving climate progress in Europe.

Ireland and the European Council have the opportunity to improve RED II in the coming weeks by keeping and building the overall target for transport renewables and by providing the right framework for the development of safe, effective, crop-based biofuels both as a climate solution and as an anchor of the rural economy.

I thank the committee for hearing this statement. We hope it has been of service.

Mr. Kevin Brady

Directive 2009/28/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 23 April 2009 is commonly known as the renewable energy directive. This directive establishes a common framework for the promotion of energy from renewable sources. It sets mandatory national targets for the overall share of energy from renewable sources – 16% in Ireland's case – and lays down rules relating to renewable energy across the electricity, heating and transport sectors.

Directive (EU) 2015/1513 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 9 September 2015, commonly known as the indirect land use change or ILUC directive, amended the renewable energy directive. With a view to minimising the risk of indirect land use change occurring, this directive placed a limit on the share of energy from biofuels produced from cereal and other starch rich crops, sugars and oil crops and from crops grown as main crops primarily for energy purposes on agricultural land. These crops are commonly referred to as first generation energy crops. Indirect land use change is where the crops grown to make biofuels are displacing crops grown for food and these displaced food crops are being grown elsewhere, possibly on land which, if used for biofuels, would not satisfy the sustainability requirements that apply to biofuels. The ILUC directive placed a limit on the share of biofuels from these crops of no more than 7% of the final consumption of energy in transport in the member states in 2020.

Following the European Council conclusions in October 2014 and the energy union strategy of February 2015, the European Commission published the so-called Clean Energy for All Europeans package on 30 November 2016. The focus of this package of eight legislative proposals, including an amendment of the renewable energy directive, is on the period post 2020. The provisions of the proposed renewable energy directive build on the existing directive and provide a framework for renewable energy development to 2030. As highlighted in the committee’s letter of 19 October, first generation energy crops are of particular interest for this meeting.

Article 7 of the proposed revision to the renewable energy directive provides that in the calculation of a member state's gross final consumption of energy from renewable energy sources, the limit on the contribution from biofuels, bioliquids and biomass fuels consumed in transport, if produced from food or feed crops, will remain at 7% of final consumption of energy in road and rail transport in that member state for 2021. However, it proposed that this limit shall be reduced to 3.8% in 2030 following a trajectory set out in an annex to the proposal. The level of these biofuels in Ireland is currently circa 1%. In addition, the proposal sets out that member states may set a lower limit and may distinguish between different types of biofuels, bioliquids and biomass fuels produced from food and feed crops, for example, by setting a lower limit for the contribution from food or feed crop-based biofuels produced from oil crops, taking into account indirect land use change.

The renewable energy directive has been discussed by member states at working group level and is also being considered by the European Parliament. Ireland has expressed concerns regarding the proposed reduction which may reduce the demand for crops such as cereal and other starch rich crops, sugars and oil crops which are important break crops in rotation and diversification and could have a knock-on effect on the supply of oilseed-rapeseed meal available for animal feed. Discussions at the working group are ongoing and the Presidency, currently held by Estonia, has issued a number of revised versions of the proposal with a view to reaching agreement between the member states. Although many member states have expressed reservations about the proposal to reduce the 7% limit to 3.8% by 2030, final consensus on the proposal has not yet been reached. Discussions will continue with a view to general agreement being reached by the Council of energy Ministers.

Members can put their questions. I will take a number of questions and then refer back to the witnesses for replies.

I thank Mr. Cogan and the officials from the two Departments for attending today's meeting. I will direct my first question to Mr. Cogan. The dynamic behind this move at European level to reduce the 7% cap on first generation energy crops for biofuels comes from the ILUC report on indirect land use change. Will he elaborate on his thoughts about that and his understanding of how it stacks up or otherwise? There has been some dispute at European level as to whether it is accurate and whether the initial reports were correct. That is very important in the overall context of what we are discussing. I hope he will elaborate on that. Will the officials from the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment also give us their view on that and its bona fides?

The officials from the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment indicate in their presentation that various countries, including the Irish Government, have expressed reservations and concerns. That is not very firm about the Department's view on this. Is the Department opposed to this cap being reduced? Are other countries opposed to it? One often sees scenarios in which various parties to a negotiation express concerns and reservations during the process, but ultimately the deal is done and that is the end of it.

Unless people are opposed to it, it does not stand for very much. I would like the witnesses to flesh this out further.

We have dealt in this committee in recent weeks with the massive pressure our tillage sector is under. We see year on year how the acreage under tillage is dropping and how there are no margins for farmers. We have also seen in the past how the sugar beet industry, for example, has ceased to exist. I am very interested to hear the views of the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment and our friends from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine on the potential of biofuel production to play a significant role in agriculture and the economics of how this might stack up in providing a profit to farmers, in particular the economics of how it may play out regarding the sugar beet industry. I would also like further detail and commentary from our guests on the subsidies that are required in order to make this work.

I call Deputy Marcella Corcoran Kennedy.

Deputy McConalogue seems to have asked a lot of questions. Does the Chairman want me to make a contribution anyway?

Yes, the Deputy may contribute now. We will take three questioners together and then go back to our guests.

Very well. I thank all the witnesses for attending and making their presentations to us. I find it very surprising that there should be a reduction of this nature in terms of what we are trying to do in aiming to generate energy from renewable sources. Can any of the witnesses give me any indication as to why we are dropping to this level? I would have thought there are plenty of opportunities for us to convert to renewable energies. What position is Ireland taking on this new figure? This follows on from what Deputy McConalogue said about the 3.8% cap. Surely the energy ministers can carry enormous influence on this, be ambitious and have a vision whereby we can move to reaching targets instead of finding reasons not to reach them, perhaps because of our own inaction or whatever else.

Mr. Brady referred to advanced biofuels. To what was he referring? I have another question for Mr. Cogan. Is there any reference to palm oil diesel and whether the draft goes far enough in stopping its use? As the witnesses will be aware, this is something we are aiming for, so what is the position in that regard? Furthermore, is the change of land use from food production to fuel production driving this reduction, or what is the position in that regard?

I thank the gentlemen for their presentations. Regarding reducing the 7% cap, which operates efficiently, at least at present, to 3.8%, is it the position that the new RED II would significantly alter the course charted by RED I? What impact would this have on the growing of crop-based biofuels such as sugar beet, rapeseed and maize? These are normal alternatives in terms of farm activity to ordinary grain-growing, which, as Deputy McConalogue has indicated, was on the verge of dropping out of the equation altogether in terms of viability over recent years. What is important about biofuel production at farm level is that it provides an important source of high-protein by-products, which are central to many of the rations that may well be forming. Is that not the case? What would happen, for example, in Ireland, where we are highly dependent on beef and dairy products, which replace at significant cost the soya inputs at that level, if this were to be achieved and if a virtual halving of the cap were to come into it? Surely the argument or focus of the policy objective is to achieve a significant reduction in carbonisation. It is surely self-evident that biofuels are cleaner than normal fossil fuels. Are we in Ireland in a position to say what the net impact of biofuels has been in terms of reduced carbon dioxide emissions? What is the rationale for all these proposals under RED II? How and why are they progressing at all in the face of negative regulatory impact analyses by a number of independent bodies? The bio-ethanol industry is significant. Can the witnesses explain or outline how this would all be impacted if this proposal and directive were to come into being? Will the witnesses outline the position the Minister, Deputy Naughten, has adopted to date on these proposals?

We now come back to our guests. Who wants to start? The departmental witnesses might get the ball rolling.

Mr. Kevin Brady

I will make a general point to start. The 7% cap does not limit us - we can go beyond it - but when we add up our renewable energy, we can only count 7%. If 8% of our energy in transport were to come from first-generation biofuels, we would only be able to count 7% of that towards our target. At present, we are at 1%, so the 7% cap will not impact us for 2020, and even if the level were reduced from 7% to 3.8%, it would be well on the trajectory down to 2030.

A wide range of questions was asked. I will try to take them as chronologically as possible. Regarding the 7% cap and the point of view of the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment, the way these things work is that in the early working group meetings, member states set out where they have particular concerns and issues and the Presidency tries to accommodate these into a revised text. The latest revised texts remove the drop from 7% to 3.8%. I was very clear in my statement that this is not guaranteed and is still under discussion. However, as far as the Minister, Deputy Naughten, is concerned, and following the use of political capital and the energy councils to discuss this, it appears that the Estonian Presidency has very much heard the concerns of the member states, and the current Presidency compromise proposal would not reduce the cap. The current 7% cap would therefore remain in place unchanged, which is something that I think the Minister, Deputy Naughten, will support when it comes to the energy council. The earliest this would come to the energy council is December of this year.

I will go through each of the remaining questions. I think I have dealt with the question of the firm views on opposition to the cap. Regarding the impact on the tillage sector and the potential role biofuels can play in emissions, Deputy McConalogue is absolutely correct. We are not talking about 2020 here; we are really talking about 2030. The key is the role biofuels will play. If the cap were dropped overnight from 7% to 3.8%, which it will not be, there would be no impact. We are currently at 1%, but it is a matter of how we develop. The European Commission is very much trying to use RED II to propose that we keep developing first-generation biofuels but only up to a point, after which we would need to start using second-generation biofuels.

If I may, I will digress slightly and explain what biofuels are in our current fuels today.

Carry on. That is no problem.

Mr. Kevin Brady

As of 1 January 2017, there is a 6% biofuel obligation rate on all fuel suppliers in the country and, basically-----

Mr. Des Byrne

The rate is 8%.

Mr. Kevin Brady

I apologise. It has increased from 6% to 8% as of 1 January this year. This biofuel obligation rate is a volumetric requirement, not an energy requirement.

Biodiesel has slightly less energy per litre than normal diesel and bioethanol would have two thirds the energy per litre although it varies. In terms of the current directive and double counting, there is an incentive to move away from first generation biofuels. In our current targets for 2020, each litre of bioethanol that a fuel supplier puts on the market, which in this country is generally in petrol, they get one credit. If they put in something that is in a list in the annexe, which in Ireland is generally used cooking oil and tallow, a waste product from the agricultural animal sector, they will get two credits because these are not grown for that specific purpose. They are waste. Advanced biofuels, which we do not generally use in this country, are substances such as algae, the biomass fraction of municipal waste, of industrial waste, straw, animal manure, sewage, sludge and palm oil, crude glycerine etc. There are many more advanced biofuels. Those are three levels.

The biodiesel content of the diesel in this country is generally tallow or used cooking oil. Overall, when the double counting for the biodiesel is included, there is just over 5% renewable energy in transport. When that is counted on a pure energy basis, there is just over 3%. There are some supplies on the biodiesel side being supplied into the fuels in Ireland but there is very little, if any, ethanol coming from Irish producers and Irish farms. There is an indirect impact such that prices may be higher if there is demand in eastern Europe, where I understand the factory is located. That demand can increase grain prices across Europe. The real question to ask in respect of these directives is not what is the role of bioenergy today, but what is its future role. Up to the 7% cap there is quite a large area for us to grow by expanding biofuel, bioethanol in petrol, etc. As it reduces to 3.8%, we would need to move towards those second and advanced biofuel levels. That is where the proposal is coming from. Sugar beet was mentioned and if it came back in, it could be used for biofuel.

This is the demand side measure. The Commission is creating the demand for these fuels by setting these national obligations which in Ireland we transfer through to the biofuel obligation rate. How do we get Irish farmers to produce it for the supply side? It is disappointing that many biofuels are being used in this country but our production of them is quite limited.

The draft bioenergy plan as published, and which is being re-examined, considers the issue in terms of supply and demand. This reduction is being considered because of the indirect land use change that is happening. People are questioning the evidence. There is a lot of evidence from the European Commission also and there are differing views on it. As with all these matters, it is a question of balance. The 7% reduction in the indirect land use change, ILUC, directive is now law for 2020 and the question is whether that should be reduced further. It would appear that the consensus of member states is moving towards answering "No" and that it should remain at 7%.

The answer to Deputy Penrose's question about the by-products, high protein, is absolutely "Yes". That is where Ireland does import as part of feed and food crops. That was a key part of our interventions in energy working groups. As for the impact on beef farmers or farmers in general, we are at 1% and all of Europe, in terms of biofuels and even with double counting, is only at 5%. The 7% has not created a barrier yet. It is really a question of the future and whether the cap should remain or be reduced. On biofuels versus fossil fuels, biofuels have been proven to reduce emissions. The reduction in transport sectors from biofuels is between 3.3% and 3.5% of our energy between 2015 and 2016. It is the heavy lifter. Electric vehicles are doing a bit. Even electrification of the Luas and DART does a small amount, but biofuels are the key heavy lifter in terms of decarbonising transport up to 2020.

The Minister for Communications, Climate Action and the Environment has signalled to another committee that it is his intention to carry out a consultation later this year on further increases on the biofuels obligation rate. Given that there was a change on 1 January of this year, it has been clearly signalled that there will be no change on 1 January 2018. That consultation would examine a change possibly on 1 January 2019 and 2020. We need to be very aware that as we move to higher levels of biofuels, some of the vehicle fleet is not able to take those higher levels. I would suggest that most of the petrol in Ireland is E5. It has 5% ethanol. Diesel varies but is approximately the same mix, 4% or 5%. With the change that came in on 1 January this year, diesel will probably move up its biofuel rate towards what is called a standard grade of B7. There are vehicles on our roads now, not many, that are not warranted to use E10. As gasoline or petrol move beyond E5 to E10, we need to be careful. We could be back to the change from leaded to unleaded where some people will use an E5 and an E10 handle and some cars can take both but others cannot. We hope we do not reach that level for a while yet but part of the consultation would be to tease out these questions and what impact they might have on infrastructure.

The rationale for renewable energy directive round two comes from the conclusions of the European Council in October 2014 which set out the EU's targets for 2030. There are eight European directives on energy, energy efficiency, renewable energy, market and market regulation which are being reviewed as part of this process. It is an entire update and review of the energy portfolio. That is why the renewable energy directive is up for examination now. I apologise if I have missed any questions but I have covered as many as possible.

Would any of the officials from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine like to comment on the effect of this from an agricultural viewpoint? We are working on a report on the tillage sector. The officials might like to comment on the implications for that sector.

Mr. Jack Nolan

Unfortunately, the area of sugar beet has fallen. When we had a sugar beet industry there were over 30,000 ha. Last year, there were between 500 ha and 600 ha. If the sugar beet industry is to come back, it will be to produce sugar. Ethanol will be a by-product. The same applies to wheat and barley. The committee has met the grain growers. They are competing with world market prices. Unfortunately, with the cost of production here, it is better for grain to go to a high value end product rather than something like this which is secondary. At the moment, there is no market. The area of tillage is falling and anecdotally the area of winter plantings is down again because of the weather but also the hard harvest. There may be in the future the potential to use grass as a biomass product because there is 93% grass in the country. We are very good at growing it and are getting better at it. There is no market opportunity for cereals for tillage farmers.

Mr. James Cogan

I will quickly address some of the later comments and then answer the questions. What Mr. Brady said about biofuels being key in European programmes until 2020 is absolutely true. It is also true up to 2030 and 2050.

That is unfortunate for the climate in so far as the provision is that even under the best scenarios, electric vehicles will not have taken over the fleet to the extent that one would like by 2030 or 2050. As a consequence we will still have hydrocarbon fuels sloshing around in petrol and diesel tanks, which we need to decarbonise and lower. The vision, which we share, is that they would be advanced biofuels. In the meantime, whether the solution is advanced biofuels and-or electro-mobility, we should not throw out what we have.

Regarding the value or otherwise of producing ethanol from grains and other crops, as a company, we are very active in producing ethanol from crops but also in producing feeds. We produce ever more valuable formulae of those feeds. We also break the inputs into other things that we can use in a higher value way. One should look at it as an integrated refinery process where we are not simply building factories based on selling commodity ethanol, but rather building factories based on the notion that we will be selling commodity ethanol plus another five, six or ten things that are highly valuable. That is our vision and mission as a business and what we want to do in Ireland.

I will return to the questions from the Deputies on indirect land use change, ILUC, how it stacks up, the ILUC food and fuel question and the rationale for the drastic change in direction on the renewable energy directive, RED II. RED II effectively empties out the ambition of transport decarbonisation entirely because it takes away the overall target and proposes a new target which goes up gradually, from 1.5% in 2021 to approximately 7% in 2030. Within that target are advanced biofuels and electricity. There is double the number, up to five times, of forms of energy within those targets. If one looks at the real climate impacts with regard to the actual amount of carbon emissions reductions, they are minuscule by 2030. The Commission has effectively taken transport out of the deal for climate change mitigation by 2030, which seems unconscionable in so far as transport accounts for over 25% of carbon emissions now and is the only sector that is actually growing because the fleet of vehicles on the road is growing.

Why is there a negative approach to biofuels if we need them so much? There are two or three things at play. One, palm oil diesel, which Deputy Corcoran Kennedy referred to, is very simple. I deliberately did not mention it in my statement. The street name for ILUC is palm oil diesel. It has flooded into Europe since the biofuel friendly legislation came into place in the 2000s. It is cheap, can be bought in huge quantities and the fossil oil companies can process it rather than having to buy from new companies such as us. It is very cheap and popular but its indirect and direct impact on the climate is very damaging, since the forests and peatlands that are destroyed to produce it release much more carbon into the atmosphere than ever gets saved by displacement of fossil fuel. It is a horrible commodity, an elephant in the room and is a huge part of the rationale for emptying out the RED II policy. That calls for a policy that, instead of throwing all the babies out with the bathwater, has a standard in place that allows us to distinguish between something like palm oil diesel and fuels that do not have any adverse side effects.

European ethanol and biodiesel made from European oil do not have any of the negatives that palm oil diesel would have because, if one looks at from a common sense point of view but also using the scientific models that have been developed for this specifically, there is simply no pressure to create new farming land to supply European biofuel demand. There is no pressure because even in the most optimistic scenarios, supposing Mr. Brady's Department decided to put 20% biofuels into the mix, and then we had to buy those crops from farmers to turn into fuels, we would still not be buying a significant enough amount of crop produce to impact the dynamics of agriculture and land. European crop output increases by 1% or 2% a year. It is a normal thing that happens despite the fact that demand is very depressed and prices are very low. People get better at their jobs even if they are not trying to, due to technology, education and so on. That tiny increase in European crop output each year would cover a very ambitious biofuels policy several times over by 2030. Europe is a starch and sugar superpower and there is no way we could ever take away sufficient volumes from that to have an adverse impact.

We have a positive impact since if we were to increase demand and double or treble crop-based biofuels, Europe's farmers would love the extra €10 billion or €20 billion of demand. They would not have any difficulty supplying it and would not need any more land. Yield increase and use of marginal land or land going out of economic use at the moment would cover it many times over. If one runs that through the scientific models developed by the European Commission to do that with real world data, one gets real world answers that confirm it. The directive impact assessment, which is the technical side of the directive, cites an initiative to use the modelling systems based on a spike in demand that is way beyond any real world scenario. Many people became concerned about biofuels because of the notion that if we replaced all our fossil fuel with biofuel, we would not have enough space on the planet to produce them. That is true but nobody is suggesting that. It is not a feasible scenario that exists in the real world. The real scenario is one where the transport sector is decarbonised by 10%, 20% or 30%, using biofuels in ten to 20 years. That is the optimum amount by which to do it and that can be covered multiple times over by Europe's farm sector.

There are no subsidies in Europe for biofuels. There were in the past but there are none now. There is a mandate. Member states take the directive and transform it into a local national mandate, putting an obligation on fuel suppliers to blend. In the case of our ethanol, which costs 45 cents per litre if bought in bulk, it is not a mad figure compared to the low price of fossil petrol. It is also a highly efficient fuel blend additive. It is marginally more expensive than the base petrol that we use, but blenders are only putting in somewhere between 5% and 20%, so it is not increasing the weighted average cost of the litre by a huge amount and it allows for other additives to be avoided that would typically be added to, for example, increase oxygen levels in the petrol or to make it cleaner or leaner burning. Ethanol does that naturally. Economically, it is not subsidised and it does not need a huge push. We are overcoming the reluctance of the fossil oil industry to take into its business something that it does not actually make.

Why was there such an impetus to drop the target? There have been big discussions in figuring out how to deal with palm oil and a couple of other shady elements in the biofuel sector. It appears to me that the European Commission, out of a sense of fatigue, said that it would just get rid of the lot rather than implementing a slightly more sophisticated process that could actually distinguish between the good and the bad. It is a big problem. The European Parliament groups working on it actively now and the European Council, unlike the Commission, have decided that this will be key and that whatever comes out will have standards on it.

It appears that if a person does not have a biorefinery in sight of his or her farm he or she might wonder why they should care.

That is a legitimate thought. If one has a biorefinery inside one's farm, it is terrific because one gets around 10% more per tonne than if one was selling to a trader. One has more control over how one sells and gets a better price. However, because a large amount of farm crop produce in Europe goes to markets anyway, the fact that the market is there but not visible still buoys it up generally. Most Irish rapeseed goes to the UK where it is used for making biodiesel. The effect is not something that one can see but it is there.

Regarding some of the others, in the case of the high-protein by-product, if the cap was halved, there is another element to the rationale for having a bluntly non-negative policy towards biofuels. Five or ten years ago, the by-product of ethanol and biodiesel made from European oil seeds was good for animal feed but was not massively attractive as the quality was variable. Some producers burned it or threw it away if they were unable to sell it quickly or easily. That has changed but perceptions take a while to follow. Now, no company in Europe treats their protein feed as something to be given or thrown away. The emphasis has shifted from getting the highest yield out of the fuel part to getting the most consistent high quality from the feed part. We could not exist without our feed. It has to be the same colour every month, have the same smell, texture, and taste for the animals and have the same nutritional and handling qualities for the feed companies to which we sell it or we would be unable to sell it and we would have to give it away or burn it. We have had to invest significantly in this, as have others. I can see why that was not that important to architects of the policy but it is now. The volume we produce is effectively the same volume of GMO soy meal imports from the Americas, and is very significant in the feed system in Europe and our ability to have a GMO-free feed system.

What of the question related to the effect on the industry of the potential cut on the cap from 7% to 3.8%?

Mr. James Cogan

The direct effect in our industry would be a pro rata cut in the numbers involved. Slightly more than 200,000 people work in the sector in Europe, and I referred to the farm demand. There will be a cut. What will happen is that the least competitive, the smallest and least ambitious will fade away. It will depend on which states reduce it first because when it is translated into local legislation, some countries will maximise production. The 7% and the 3.8% do not need to be applied equally over all forms, so that someone could say that they will continue using 7% ethanol and no palm oil, which would be terrific. It is likely that the ethanol sector will be the one that will be the most hearty and healthy at the end of the period.

As for Ireland, we are not here worrying about our own demise, because we are a highly entrepreneurial, fleet of foot, confident, optimistic group of people. While we are very confident that we will be more than alive and kicking, we just will not be doing this. We are before the committee to discuss the principle of the thing rather than our fearing that our own pockets will be affected in the short term. We have increased our staff in Ireland, opened new offices and new companies that are based on the biorefinery concept. We see ourselves as an emerging star in taking tillage crops and treating them as more than commodities to be dumped on whoever will take them off our hands but having them treated as highly valuable inputs in a process that can produce really valuable nutritional feed, materials, energy, speciality chemicals and so on.

Three more members have indicated they wish to speak, namely, Senators Lombard and Mac Lochlainn and Deputy Martin Kenny.

It has been an informative session and I have learned a lot on the fuels and the levels required. I may be mistaken, but there is a conflict between what we have heard here today. The view of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine is that even if we were to grow grain for this product, it would not be feasible and the farming community would not buy into it in large numbers. It is something like 1% now. Would we reach 7% with the current margins? That is the core of my question. We have had a lengthy discussion about the viability of the grain industry and where it is going. Acreages have fallen from perhaps 2,500 ha to anything as low as 1,500 ha now, which is a significant drop. No new land is being made available and what we have is what we have. Farmers have become more productive. In many ways there has been a major change in dairy and grassland production is one of the key drivers there, especially in my part of the world in the south. When it comes to the future of the grain industry, will farmers see it as a product to chase and one in which they see a future? Will they perceive it as a product that will keep the industry going, whether it is the knock-on effect of having land for nitrates or straw?

I question the figures. We can do anything up to 7%, and we are at 1% now, so we are 6% behind the curve in an industry that is running out of grain production. How do the witnesses see that turning around? Do they think farmers will see it as a commodity they will buy into as something that provides a sustainable future? We must consider that grain is probably at its lowest levels over the past decade. There have been four or five years of consistently low grain prices, although they have increased slightly this year on the previous two years but they have been at an all-time low. The committee has heard about a levelling-off of grain prices and a dramatic increase is not evident. Members were told that 40% of the grain market is already there. Ultimately, will that 6% be fixed by this cap or will we buy into it?

I apologise for having to step in and out of the meeting as I had business in the Seanad. I am sorry that I have missed some of the presentations and responses.

Teagasc had a synopsis of our responsibilities regarding greenhouse gases and emissions. The EU has set a target of 20% reduction by 2020 and a 30% reduction by 2030. The matter was debated in the Seanad recently, and no doubt in the Dáil also, and I refer to the pressure on the agriculture sector since one third of those greenhouse gases come from the agriculture sector, especially ruminant animals and their methane emissions, which is a big challenge. Teagasc has published four or five bullet points regarding its recommended strategy to the Government on how to address this. When I read that, and participate in a debate in the Seanad, I cannot understand how an industry solution that would assist us in the process and in reaching those targets would be limited. I would have thought one would incentivise the area. Looking at the overall responsibility, one third of greenhouse gases in Ireland come from agriculture, which poses a real challenge with which we must grapple. We do not want to harm our important beef and dairy sectors or the sheep and lamb sectors and here we have this industry-based solution.

Could we have a sense of the two Departments' views? The EU has laid out our responsibilities, which we accept as a country and a people. We must clearly make the case that they cannot ask us to meet those targets and put responsibilities on us but hold our hands behind our back when we have potential solutions, such as the industry-based solution presented here today. I appreciate that the Government is engaging with the European partners. Are we engaging robustly? Are we pointing out that we have been given responsibilities by the EU while it appears to be limiting our options for meeting them?

I apologise for arriving late. I had a question in the Dáil. My understanding is that a lot of this is around change of land use. The officials will correct me if I am wrong. There is a kind of worldwide lobby suggesting that if I take Rwanda out of producing food and put it to producing energy, there will be people starving in the Horn of Africa. We had the Famine in Ireland because of potato failure but there was an awful lot of other food produced that people could not get. Famines then and now are caused by political decisions rather than a lack of food. I think most people would agree with that. I do not believe the logic works through.

What the officials are really saying is that the problem is profitability for farmers to produce the grain to make the bioethanol. It is not profitable enough compared with traditional farm methods. Is there a possibility of using more marginal land for different crops which could produce the goods we require? Would that require incentivisation? In my part of the world there are an awful lot of trees being planted through forestry and there is no work for people in the community. We wait 40 years for the trees to grow, they are thinned after ten years and then it is another seven or eight years before they are thinned again. It all happens by machine and there is no need for people. If there was a crop that was reducing our greenhouse gases and solving those problems while involving an element of labour, that would certainly be a positive. I would like the officials to tease that out a little bit.

I was interested in the point about growing grass very well if we are growing it. I presume the reference was to using biodigesters to produce gas from the grass. I would like to understand more about the profitability of that. How would it fix the problem of work? With slurry, we have deadlines. We cannot get it out on the land when the land is too wet, and we have run into huge problems there. I do not think we have any biodigesters in the country compared with other places around the world where biodigestion is used more to take care of that problem. Our climate seems to be getting wetter and wetter and the problem of getting the slurry out is continuous. Is there a possibility of killing two birds with the one stone and resolving this issue by using the grass which we produce very well while being able to pay the farmer a reasonable price for it?

Mr. Kevin Brady

I will address Senator Lombard's question first. The circa 1% is what is in our tanks. Production of bioethanol in Ireland is almost zero. In terms of the 7%, we are at 1%, but I would point out that we have a much bigger diesel fleet and use a lot more diesel than the average European country. All of the renewable energy in our diesel, I think it was 99% or 100% last year, was second generation. It was tallow and used cooking oil. Much of that is produced in Ireland. Those are not subject to the 7%, the 3.8% or any sort of limit like that. We are a way off from this. At the moment, the 7% or even the indication for 3.8% is not a barrier to development of bioenergy in Ireland. It may be in the future as we get towards that level, but at the moment it is not. In terms of emissions, we need to be very clear that this is in respect of our renewable energy targets only. Nothing we have talked about applies to our emissions targets. If a piece of land is taken out of beef farming and put into forestry, growing grain or whatever, or even the greenhouse gas emissions reduction if the whole country turned, there is no limit on that 7%. It is important that we look at the two things separately.

There is a move away from a national renewable energy target. The 2014 European Council conclusions that set an "at least" 27% target for the European Union as a whole stated there would be no national targets. We talk about our 16% 2020 target a lot. There will not be a European set target for 2020 for renewable energy. We will have to put together our national energy and climate plans and specify our ambition. That is why there would be no sectoral targets for transport, heat or electricity. There is a biofuel trajectory there. It is important to-----

Are they interlinked, though? Is there any crossover point where one blends into the other?

Mr. Kevin Brady

If we do something like, for instance, putting renewable energy into the tank of a car, it will have a dual impact in terms of meeting the renewable energy target and reducing emissions. Our actions are interlinked, absolutely. In terms of land use and where the agriculture goes, however, there is no limit. This will not create any sort of arable move to cereals that might help the emissions targets in the agriculture sector.

On land use change and marginal land incentivisation, there are land use change impacts if one does that, and that is where it is ultimately coming from. I will leave the question of what can or cannot be grown on marginal land to other colleagues to answer. On incentivisation, the renewable energy side of the piece very much puts the demand side in place. We are saying this is what the market and the fuel suppliers should do. They should put renewable energy into their petrol or diesel. That is where the renewable energy directive is coming from. In terms of incentivising industry in a particular country, that is more agriculture policy than energy policy.

On the commercial viability of gas and biodigesters, we do not have many of them at the moment. Many of the ones that are here in terms of anaerobic digestion would have been funded under the REFIT 3 combined heat and power programme. I am sure the committee is well aware that there is a renewable heat incentive in development. Part of that process is a consideration of how commercial anaerobic digestion would be and what sort of tariff or subsidy might be required.

We will return to the officials from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine.

Mr. Jack Nolan

I think farmers grow grain if the price is right. I do not think they would mind whether it was going to biofuel or malt barley. Premium products are not getting a high price at the moment. My understanding is that this is a by-product. That is the barrier. There is no price for farmers from which to make a decent profit margin. A lot of the land farmers are on is rented. The committee heard all this last week. They simply cannot afford it. Even farmers who are getting over 3.5 tonnes per acre of spring barley are not making a profit. The area of wheat, barley and oats has gone down by 10% from 2008 to 2016. That will continue. Farmers are following the price. Our dairy numbers are increasing because farmers see it as more profitable. There was pent-up demand at the end of quota and we have excellent dairy farmers who are soaking up some of the land that is becoming available.

As regards the climate change issues, we are looking at the cows. We had 1.43 million dairy cows in the last census. We are very good at growing grass.

We are breeding a cow that is good at converting that grass into milk. We have the economic breeding index. That was a success, so we now have a beef data genomic programme where we are looking at the suckler herd and trying to make the animal more efficient. We are grant-aiding farmers to use low-emission slurry spreading equipment, such as trailing shoes, dribble bars etc.

A major problem is that only 10% of our soil is at optimum fertility. We are low in lime and pH which means that we lose about 50% of the efficiency of the use of fertilisers by being at the wrong pH. This year is the year of sustainable grassland supported by the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. Part of that is the Teagasc 10t, which aims to get farmers to grow 10 tonnes of grass per hectare and use it, whereas at the moment the average is only about 6 tonnes per hectare. There is huge scope there.

Growing crops on marginal land would not be a good idea because farmers are losing money when growing on good land. Marginal land can be used for grass or other purposes but not to grow a crop because farmers would not make money. If they cannot make money where it is dry and with a better climate and so on, it would be very difficult.

The profitability of biodigesters will vary. Grass and profitability will depend on the tariff that is paid in. There is none there at the moment. People are not using it. If the tariff were correct, there could be, or if the process gets better and we get better at growing it, there may be something there, but not at the moment.

The other thing with anaerobic digesters is that we do not reduce the amount of nutrient, meaning that phosphorus and nitrogen would still be applied to land after it. However, we could transport it further and perhaps get money from producing electricity from the gas.

Dr. Eugene Hendrick

The forestry sector employs around 12,000 people per year. Our harvest is approximately 3.3 million cu. m of wood per year. We forecast that to increase to about 7 million cu. m by 2035. Almost all of that increase will come from the private forestry that has been established over the past 25 years.

On climate change mitigation, we forecast that between 2021 and 2030 approximately 22 million tonnes of CO2 will be sequestered by our forest estate, which will make a significant contribution to our climate change targets between 2021 and 2030. There is considerable potential with afforestation increase in area. There are very good grants and premium rates available to private growers to engage in afforestation. From a macroeconomic perspective, the level of production from forests offers considerable potential for jobs and rural development. The CO2 taken in by forests as they grow offers a considerable potential contribution to our climate change mitigation targets. The benefit is not just from the growth of the forests but also from the produce of those forests. The use of wood biomass for combustion has a very significant potential to reduce the level of emissions from other materials used in the building sector. The benefits of the forest sector to employment, macroeconomic development and climate change mitigation should also be taken into account.

I have heard all those arguments before. Where I live, all I see are trees around me and no people. Every 1,000 acres of forestry employs only one full-time person. I absolutely agree with Dr. Hendrick on the climate change benefits, but it employs nobody. That is the reality when compared with any other sector of farming. I never saw trees having to go to the town to buy a gate or a bit of fencing to put up. Once it is planted, it is gone forever. It is a permanent change of land use. While I understand the benefits from the wider societal point of view, those of us living in the rural areas where we used to have communities but do not have them anymore are angry about it.

Dr. Eugene Hendrick

When forests are planted it takes labour to establish the plantation. The plantation then needs to be maintained to control vegetation and so on. That also takes labour inputs and so on, usually locally. The other point is that depending on the rate of growth, the plantation can start to be thinned after 14 or 15 years. It can then be thinned at three or four-year cycles thereafter. Again that all generates employment from harvesting, transporting of material etc. It also generates employment in the processing sector. There are some great examples of sawmills and board mills giving good employment in rural places where there can be low levels of employment.

The level of production will increase substantially with a doubling of output. A typical forest plantation from the time it is established to the time it reaches what we call the end of the rotation can last 25, 30 or 35 years depending on the growth rate. There is actually considerable activity in those forests with a lot of wood coming out of the forests and generating local employment.

Chairman, may I-----

I will let the Deputy back in later. I want to let Mr. Cogan respond and we will come back around again.

The point was made-----

Okay, briefly.

At the moment wood pulp has no market. It cannot be sold. Private operators are thinning forests at the moment and cannot sell the product. They are piling it up. Coillte is allowing that to happen. I blame Coillte for it. Thinning at the moment has no economic value. People planted forests in the expectation that when they thinned their forests, it would have a value at ten, 15 or 20 years. They are thinning the forests and even when Coillte was buying it, it was not covering the cost of transportation. However, it has stopped buying the wood pulp now. It is questionable whether this is creating an economic value.

Dr. Eugene Hendrick

The harvest from Ireland's forest estate is at record levels. Last year it was about 3.3 million cu. m and the previous year it was about 3.2 million cu. m. The level of harvest is increasing all the time. The level of harvest from the private sector is increasing. It was not at the same level in 2016, but in 2015 it was at quite a high level. There is a lot of activity with considerable increase in harvest. There is considerable demand for wood, including pulp. There is also a strong and vibrant market for wood fuel. Many people are looking for wood. The private forestry companies are looking for timber to buy from private forest owners.

Mr. Kevin Brady

I wish to respond to Deputy Cahill's point. I am stepping outside the transport sector into the heat sector, as it were. Biomass is a key future fuel to decarbonise the heat sector. It is one of the key fuels in the analysis for the renewable heat incentive through the use of biomass boilers. There is a supply of biomass that could be used in the heat sector, but there is a price differential between a fossil fuel and renewable energy heating systems. The renewable heating incentive is examining filling that gap. That might be an opportunity. I do not say it will be the solution to everything that was raised there, but it certainly has potential in the future.

Mr. James Cogan

Senator Lombard asked about the extent to which this is important to agriculture. It is important. I spend much of my time in Brussels where so much of what impacts us in Ireland gets decided. There is nearly a divide-and-conquer thing going on whereby something may not be screamingly important to us here today, but it is important to other people over there. If our farm sector gives away Europe-wide €6 billion or €7 billion per year of demand on the basis that it is not very important to us right now, it will have an impact.

It softens the market for everybody and it is one big connected market.

The other issue here is that many things are eroding away at the farming sector and at farm life. There is this particular matter, of course, there are international trade talks, there is the current battle over the Mercosur countries that we may well lose, and there is Brexit, which will obviously affect us very specifically. I would consider it a positive development if we were to think about this on a European level and defend the farming sector in general against any kind of legislative manoeuvres that would erode the ability to make a living in this sector. We should stoutly do this. I also think that we have been supported in our stance on Mercosur by many countries which do not really care very much about beef but which see agriculture as something worth defending across the board. We should belong to that cohort of countries, including both France but also the central and eastern European countries, that are ready to stand up and be counted on every battle and on every front that is eroding away at agriculture. That is my main point here.

We come to our last round of questions. I call Senator Mulherin.

I have a number of questions. I am conscious that yesterday an NGO called Friends of the Irish Environment was given leave in the High Court to take an action against the State for perceived failure on our climate mitigation actions. This country is generally coming under criticism in this regard. The witnesses are of course appearing today before an agriculture committee. Obviously we value agriculture economically and we are very proud of the fact that we in Ireland farm in a carbon-efficient manner, which was the subject of discussion here. A certain proportion of our emissions is allocated to agriculture. To get the balance right, then, we have to be very active in developing other areas and in upping our game in these other sectors: electricity, transport, as we have been discussing here, heat, and energy efficiency. We have an abundance of renewable electricity sources. We have been talking about biofuels here today and it seems that we have so much available to us and that we just have to get the policies to match. I know that there are issues around cost and so forth.

People have mentioned biomass and forestry, which fall into the camps of both the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. I want to echo some of the points raised earlier by Deputy Martin Kenny. We in Mayo have a lot of forested land but most of the forestry currently owned by Coillte is being felled and then shipped down to Waterford. As a result we in Mayo get no value added to that product. I very much welcome the renewable heat incentive scheme, which is long overdue and can bring a new stimulus to the market. When it comes to many of the policies that we are trying to implement, we talk about creating a stimulus because the default position - fossil fuels, conventional generation etc. - are cheaper and all existing technologies have developed around them. We are going to have to invest and this is what we have been doing. I welcome that.

I am not up to date but I often got the impression in the past that there was not much of a conversation taking place between the two Departments on how to drive things forward when it came to renewable energy, land use issues, and areas of departmental commonality. This may have changed and I would be delighted to hear it if so. I am talking, however, about the situation as it was up to two years ago when I would ring people and one hand did not seem to know what the other hand was doing. Other than the proposals coming from the farming organisations, what vision or plan is contained in this renewable heat incentive scheme to add value to a community? We have been talking about sequestering carbon in forests, for example, and we know that the Government has given many grants to forestry. When the wood is cut, however, we could perhaps introduce systems or some kind of co-operative whereby all of the farmers within a certain radius could bring their crop, be it forestry or willow or whatever, and have it dried or turned into woodchip. From what I can see in the west and north west, we could introduce a system along these lines which would be much more labour intensive than the current model, thus creating much-needed value and employment in the local areas. While we encourage people to burn woodchip and the like, I have heard of people having to bring it down from Enniskillen, despite the fact that we are surrounded by forests. I would like to ask the witnesses what concrete plans have been made to develop this aspect of things and to show real value for communities that need to make the most of their natural assets, among them forestry and biomass.

I also have a comment on the area of willow and energy crops. I heard recently of the ways in which a particular farmer has to deal with his willow crop. First, the willow has to be harvested, and then the farmer in question has to bring it somewhere else to have it broken down. Anyone harvesting any other crop has a single machine in the field to do the job required, so the willow situation sounds highly inefficient and hit-or-miss. I think that Teagasc does a great job in advising and guiding farmers, but does willow come under its remit? Is it excluded because it is not food? Does it perhaps come under the general agriculture remit?

On the fuel side of things, Deputy Corcoran Kennedy and a number of other speakers mentioned the issue of palm oil, and I am trying to understand the logic here. I understand that many of our fuel crops are imported from outside of the EU. If we are taking in fuel crops like palm oil from south-east Asia, what about the carbon footprint incurred by the transport of this? How does this fit into the equation? A further issue highlighted by NGOs and by Irish Aid is the fact that energy crops are displacing food crops in the developing world, particularly in east Africa. This is not just a question of people going hungry to bring us energy crops. People are also being displaced from land by governments that may not be operating in the manner that they should. Will Mr. Brady explain how this matter is being addressed? Again, the crops in question have to be transported, thus generating a carbon footprint.

I will finish on the matter of our very carbon-efficient farming methods and the argument that people should be fed using the most carbon-efficient processes. To what extent does this argument cut the mustard in Europe? To what extent can we in Ireland argue that we produce food in a more efficient way than our counterparts in Italy, for example? Does Ireland actually get any credit for this, or is it just a matter of us telling ourselves that we are doing a good job with our beef genomic schemes and so forth? Does any of this actually have any currency when we discuss our targets and objectives in Europe?

I thank the witnesses for their presentations. I would like to ask Mr. Cogan if Ireland, given our weather, is fit to produce sunflower oil. I also have a question for the witnesses from the Department of Agriculture, Food and Marine on the production of bioethanol. My understanding is that bioethanol can be produced from pulp for cattle and that it is possible to produce a biodegradable bottle, something I know to be under way in County Clare. I believe, however, that one needs sugar to be available on the world markets at €500 per tonne for this to be viable. Is that correct? That is the figure that I was given.

I agree the market would be an opening for farmers, especially the tillage guys, because we are 1 million bales or 100,000 acres down on tillage this year because people are fed up taking a bad price.

My next query is for Mr. Brady. Will his Department stand over giving a renewal heat incentive, RHI, to a company that erects a factory in another country, like Bord na Móna is doing or going to do? I mean a company that sources the raw material in its host country, hauls it to the factory, processes it there, hauls it by a boat and brings it into Ireland. Will his Department give an RHI to a factory that acts in this way?

Palm kernels are being imported into the country at present. This committee must make it clear that agricultural emissions have decreased.

I have more questions for Mr. Brady. There is an EU directive whereby in order to have food security one could not go too far in producing some of those crops. Why is it okay to not have an EU directive that stipulates every country must have a certain amount of trees or cannot kill all of their cattle like some phenomenal people are talking about at present? Why has one sector been picked on? I have analysed other aspects of agriculture and the directive does not seem to be applied in the same way.

Mr. Nolan referred to a grass anaerobic digester, food and grass in terms of the directive. I looked at such a digester in the past few weeks and can attest to the fact the machine needs a terrible amount of grass in order to work and produce biogas. To be brutally honest, unless one has a proper tariff of 10 cent or 11 cent built in then the task is not worthwhile for farmers. We have talked about using such digesters but, on the other side, there is a directive that has stalled everything.

I have figures on miscanthus willow production to hand that I can show the witnesses. The figures reflect the fact that the farmers who went into such production ended up earning less than €100 per acre per year. Last week, one farmer in interviews on several radio stations stated that he has resumed beef production because there was no money to be made from growing miscanthus willow.

My next query about trees is for Dr. Hendrick. First, if one lives in the real world, one earns nothing unless one is in commercial timber production. I come from a machinery background and worked in forestry. Therefore, I know that a lot of guys who worked in forestry went bust. Second, the sector does not employ many people as one guy can do the whole contract. Dr. Hendrick was correct to say that a grant introduced 18 or 20 years ago has resulted in timber coming on stream from the private sector because some people planted bad land. Such planting was not done for the love of doing so, rather it was done just to receive a grant. It is a fact that the thinnings cost producers money. If one has a plantation that is fit for cutting, unless one has commercial timber one is at nothing. Has the downside been examined? Many areas have been planted - Deputy Martin Kenny's area of Leitrim is one of the worst cases but the west of Ireland has got its fair share of plantations - and communities and schools have been lost. The people in those areas must go somewhere and, unfortunately, emigration has been the answer for a lot of them. Therefore, I do not think we should go down that road.

I thank members. Nearly every witness has been asked a question. I suggest that Dr. Hendrick starts and we can work our way back down.

Dr. Eugene Hendrick

I thank members for their questions.

I shall first respond to the question of biomass and the situation in County Mayo and around the country. The local use of energy for heating is welcome. We hope that the renewable heat incentive will result in a local demand for material for use in heating and so on. The RHI is a good model to incentivise the use of wood fuels locally and some local businesses or small district heating facilities use wood fuel for heating. We see the initiative as being a great match to the forest resource because a lot of additional material will come on stream from the private sector over the next 15 to 20 years. We view the heat market as a good way to use such material.

On the point made by Deputy Fitzmaurice, County Wicklow has the highest level of forest cover in the country and it has thriving local rural communities, in many cases on foot of afforestation that took place 30, 40 or 50 years ago. The county has many small sawmills and many companies that make garden sheds etc. We see this as a good model and example for the rest of the country in terms of the benefits generated by afforestation over time.

The Deputy made a point about tree thinnings. The forest service provides a forest road grant to landowners in order for them to thin out their plantations.

Is that a grant for a road to allow thinnings to be transported?

Dr. Eugene Hendrick

Yes. It is a roading grant.

It is money in the pockets of landowners.

Dr. Eugene Hendrick

For broadleaf and woodland species there is also a tending and thinning grant that enables material to be brought to the roadside. From an energy perspective, we hope the RHI will be a useful vehicle for the forestry sector that will stimulate local demand. In terms of the privately owned estate, there is a roading grant and there are other grants available.

On the energy side, the Department makes available a lot of information on the supply chain. We organise workshops around the country to bring owners, developers and entrepreneurs together. We show them what one needs to do to put together a good plan to exploit a forest area and supply wood fuels to the marketplace at a competitive price. A lot of things are happening in terms of wood fuels and so on.

It is important that we stimulate that market and not just in terms of the wood fuel supply but for the more valuable material that will eventually be produced from forests such as large stake wood and, ultimately, sawn material. The earlier we intervene in forest plantations in terms of taking out smaller material then the greater the knock-on effect there will be when it comes to providing larger sized material for sawmills, etc. which is the higher end of the market. Such work will give a return to the growers who are local landowners and private forest owners and to the locally developed industry and, on a wider scale, the sawmill sector.

I hope I have covered all of the questions and points that have been raised.

I asked a question about the advice that Teagasc gives and willow production.

Dr. Eugene Hendrick

I shall hand over to my colleague, Mr. Nolan, who will answer the questions on Teagasc and willow production.

Mr. Jack Nolan

Teagasc has a high-profile energy specialist. Any time there is a question he talks about it and he has done a lot of work on the subject. Advice is one of the key elements of the rural development programme. The Department proposes to give €100 million to encourage farmers to attend discussion groups and engage with advisers because the best way to cause change and become more carbon neutral or carbon efficient is to make each farm more efficient and use less energy, and eventually become an energy hub. There may be a role for planting some of a farm and a combination of farming. I do not think it has to be an either-or scenario but that is my opinion. There is definitely scope in the future for more use to be made of forestry on different types of land.

Today, we are here to talk about regulation. The big international buyers like Danone and Nestlé are now not happy to simply say, "Show us your regulation." They are saying, "Show us your impact on water quality, greenhouse gases and so on." Ireland supplies 15% of the milk powder market in the world. It is a premium market but to maintain our position we must produce to the highest standards and our farmers are becoming more efficient all of the time. In Brussels we are all of the time giving the message that our farmers are at the forefront whether it is producing beef and filling in a carbon navigator, the dairy sector or whatever.

As regards the sugar beet price, I am sorry but I am not sure what it is. What I do know is that before the factories closed here, it was very difficult at the price that was in place. The UK is under pressure even though it has bigger farms and more sunshine. Unless the price is quite high, it is difficult to see an industry here. However, there is a Beet Ireland energy group which states it will bring something back. However, I am not sure what the price is.

As regards using grass in the anaerobic digesters, it costs €40 a tonne to produce grass silage and one will get €25 a tonne. That is what is being spoken about. At present, it does not pay. Maybe it will in the future as we get more efficient. I hope I have covered everything.

Is it that it needs a proper tariff?

Mr. Jack Nolan

It needs a higher tariff, and farmers need to become as efficient as possible in producing it. Also, as research develops, we might get better at extracting what we need out of it through digestion. The digestion process itself may become more efficient.

I thank Mr. Nolan. In calling Mr. Brady, I have skipped Mr. Byrne. Obviously, they are working together.

Mr. Kevin Brady

Yes, he has corrected me once or twice already. In response to Senator Mulherin, in terms of the working relationship with the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, I have only been with the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment less than two years but in my experience we have an excellent working relationship. In terms of the renewable heat incentive, RHI, biofuels and the bioenergy steering group, we have had a great period working together. If there were issues there in the past, I see no evidence of them there now.

The climate piece, the emissions reduction etc. are obviously a core part of this. We are here talking about renewable energy, but I refer to the secondary part in terms of emissions reduction. That is the key driver of this. It is a climate and energy package. That is what is driving the whole piece.

The directives and regulations coming from the European Commission are very much from an energy policy point of view. They are trying to drive national policy on energy, and how we translate them nationally is our competence.

In terms of transport, we will meet the transport decarbonisation target by putting an obligation on fuel suppliers. That is our key lever. We are also moving into electric vehicles, EVs. That could be described that as Exchequer-funded subsidies.

In terms of the heat sector, we have spoken about the RHI. That also is an Exchequer-funded subsidy. In terms of the RHI, it is important to distinguish between supply-side and demand-side measures. The RHI is a demand-side measure. It will stimulate demand for bioenergy. Undoubtedly, that will require supply. Deputy Fitzmaurice mentioned farmers who have planted certain crops and have found there is no market for them. It is clear we need to put the demand side in place first and then develop the supply lines. As set out in the draft bioenergy plan, as I stated earlier, there are both demand-side and supply-side measures. The demand side is very much the RHI. It is not alluding to something beyond that, but we do need to put that demand in place. In the Senator's example, if there are businesses, factories or industry that would like to convert from fossil fuel to a renewable alternative and at present that barrier is more expensive, if that gap can be filled through the renewable heat incentive, that can be made happen and then that provides a local demand for biomass, which is the key element.

The palm oil question opens up the question of sustainability. In fairness, that would be part of the indirect land use change, be it in Europe or beyond, that if one is demanding something, there is something else shifting. There are sustainability requirements in the renewable energy directive currently and they increase with time. Renewable energy produced from existing installations is at a certain percentage. As for energy produced from new installations, any installation that starts operation after 1 January 2021 will have to ensure a 70% reduction in greenhouse gas emissions for the fuels that are produced. There are sustainability requirements in the renewable energy directive that ensure we are moving towards a path where there is not a gap in the arithmetic and we are not reducing emissions where they are increasing elsewhere. Those sustainability conditions are in there.

On Deputy Fitzmaurice's point about the proposed renewable heat incentive, I would make two points. The first is that the incentive would be paid to heat users, not suppliers or importers of biomass. The factory owner who converts his fossil fuel boiler to a renewable energy boiler would receive the tariff and then buy the bioenergy. It would be very much for the heat user as opposed to the heat importer.

Can I just ask Mr. Brady one question? Does it make sense to import this biomass, burn it at 40% efficiency to produce electricity and pay the person to participate in the RHI because we are not providing an incentive to Irish farmers to produce something when it can be bought or produced cheaper abroad? We will never solve it if that is the road we go down.

Mr. Kevin Brady

The key point is the renewable heat incentive is for heat, not electricity. We can control to some degree through sustainability criteria. Under European state aid rules, we would not have the ability to say that this incentive is paid to a heat user but only if he or she buys biomass that is produced in Ireland. We cannot distinguish. It is a European single market.

Can one say if it is Europe?

Mr. Kevin Brady

I will have to double-check that.

Mr. Kevin Brady

The sustainability criteria would be the primary method. The second point is in terms of how we would encourage it to happen in Ireland as opposed to France. We have to look at the supply side. In the past, it did not work as well as planned because when the supply-side measures were put in place, there was no demand. One must put the demand-side measures in place, that is, the RHI, and then that will provide a market, a demand for biomass. If domestic industry needs support, the appropriate place for that to be put in place would be on the supply side.

There were a couple of other questions. In terms of why the EU is deciding to do this in renewable energy and not in other areas, I honestly cannot tell why the EU has chosen this particular area but, obviously, it is focusing on the renewable energy targets.

For grass working in biomass needing a tariff of 10 cent or 11 cent, we need to be conscious that the RHI is a multi-annual programme that would be funded from the Exchequer. Therefore, we need to ensure that there would be value for money for the Exchequer and identify the most cost-effective way for the renewable heat incentive.

If the Department is looking at this and incentivising people, it must compete with the fossil fuel side because it is much cheaper. Regardless of whether we like it, would Mr. Brady agree this will cost a lot of money? It is subsidisation.

Mr. Kevin Brady

If we are looking purely to decarbonise the economy and purely to incentivise, it will cost a lot of money. Bringing us back to what we are here to talk about in the first place, the bioenergy and biofuels obligation rate is not Exchequer-funded. It is effectively placing the obligation, via the suppliers, on the users of fuel for transport to include a certain amount of renewable energy in it. There are myriad options available. Certainly, to start something, an incentive is sometimes the most appropriate action. I think that completes the questions.

I thank Mr. Brady. I will ask Mr. Cogan to sum up the questions that were more appropriate to himself.

Mr. James Cogan

I would like to come back to the land use change question simply because it is always there bubbling away. The idea of indirect effects, that is, if we use land to produce biofuels then we do not have it for food and somebody else has to use other land for food, is a kind of scary Hallowe'en ghost in so far as it is definitely the single most widely used rationale for the change in direction in the biofuels policy in Europe. I remind everybody that while it is a legitimate phenomenon, it does not happen. It is not happening in Europe for the biofuels that are produced in Europe for European use.

Even under a more optimistic or ambitious biofuels policy in Europe, as long as it was restricted to European crops processed into biofuels and used in Europe, those land use change dynamics would never kick in in a way that would be worrying. That is not just an opinion; it is scientific.

With regard to Senator Mulherin's point on the import of Asian palm oil diesel and possibly even the African example she used, to my knowledge not a drop of biofuel has arrived in from Africa, although people feared that would happen. It is tightly monitored. Every single drop, or at least every tanker load, of biofuel that is used in Europe is traced. At a load basis, it is all extremely closely monitored and, to my knowledge, nothing has ever come in from Africa. Unjust things can happen in Africa but there is no evidence of any connection to European biofuels.

If I may clarify, apparently in east Africa an Italian company was given land by the Kenyan Government. People had been growing food there but they were displaced. There was a lot of consternation at the time which is why I am wondering what has happened. I assumed it was not the only example. It was an Italian company whose idea was to import it into Europe.

Mr. James Cogan

That is an interesting example. As far as I know, it did not then happen. Perhaps the injustice happened initially in terms of the reuse or repurposing of the land. However, I am not aware of any of the fuel then coming in. Right now, Italy is the biggest and most ambitious processor of palm diesel, and it is busy adding more capacity to its palm diesel processing. Every time I turn on the radio in Italy, where I spend a lot of my time, I hear the advertisements. It is marketing it to consumers as a green way of getting from A to B. That is because the legislation allows it. In both instances - the African and Asian palm oil - I cannot be more categorical. We are absolutely against it and is an atrocious way of abusing the basic principles of climate legislation to do something that nobody wanted, because it is worse than the illness we are trying to cure. I would much prefer if we were to carry on using fossil fuel than to use palm oil diesel or something imported from Africa if it were to be done in a socially unjust way.

Mr. James Cogan: That is an interesting example. As far as I know, it did not then happen. Perhaps the injustice happened initially in terms of the re-use or re-purposing of the land but I am not aware of any of the fuel then coming in. However, right now Italy is the single biggest and most ambitious processor of palm diesel and it is busy adding more capacity to its palm diesel processing. Every time I turn on the radio in Italy, where I spend a lot of my time, I hear the advertisements, and it is being manufactured to consumers as a green way of getting from A to B. That is because the legislation allows it. On both instances - the African and Asian palm oil - I cannot be more categorical: We are absolutely against it. It is an atrocious way of abusing the basic principles of climate legislation, which is to do something that nobody wanted, as it is worse than the illness we are trying to cure. I would much prefer if we carried on using fossil fuel than use palm oil diesel or something imported from Africa if it were to be done in a socially unjust way.

The thrust of our argument is that the legislation should be capable of blocking the palm oil diesel and those things that do not actually do any good. It is not a difficult thing to do. If we could simply get that through, we would be able to carry on helpfully and happily developing the sector within Europe based on European-produced crops of European producers being consumed here. We would ring-fence the whole market, which is good for everybody, and provide more demand for all those tillage farmers who are suffering. That is not just an Irish thing. It is happening throughout the Union. We would very much echo, therefore, the Senator's sentiments on it, as would the industry as a whole.

To answer Deputy Fitzmaurice on whether Ireland could produce the sunflower seed needed for biodiesel, I am not sure that sunflower is an optimal crop for Ireland. However, Ireland can produce rape, wheat and beet, and they are ideal crops for producing fuel for cars. I would always stress that it would be done in parallel with other products in order that it would not be entirely biofuel-based and we would be getting materials and food out of it as well.

Deputy Kenny mentioned marginal land use. It is not a black-and-white issue where there is marginal land and non-marginal land that can be either used or not used. Land becomes marginal as it falls out of use and is no longer managed. The longer it is out of use, the less likely it will come back into use. The production of European biofuels reduces the tendency for land to drift out of use and into redundancy. Typically, European biofuels are certified and are monitored for being produced in ways that do not eat into existing agricultural production. They should be produced from land that is at risk of drifting into redundancy and from yield growth. That was the principle behind it, and it has also been the practice. We have had ten years of monitoring reasonably large scales and growth in some areas, and the practice has been as good as the principle. Where the practice is not good is where it involves imports.

Mr. Nolan raised an interesting point, which is our attractiveness to foreign direct investment, FDI, from the likes of Danone because of our energy efficiency and approach to renewable energy etc. Given Mr. Brady is here, I understand that Article 19 in this new renewable energy directive basically states that carbon credits cannot accrue. For example, in the case of Athenry, if the wind farm gets a REFIT tariff when it is built, the company itself will not be able to get carbon credits or green energy credits for it. There is a prohibition in this article. From speaking to some people in the renewable energy industry, I understand that if there was some deviation on this, it would allow us to be more attractive to FDI and to enter into certain arrangements. At the moment, we have a REFIT tariff that supports, say, renewable wind. However, if a big company wanted to come into Ireland and be associated with a green energy project, perhaps it could pay something towards supporting the cost of it in order that the entire REFIT tariff would not be borne by Government. To make us more attractive to FDI, could there be a more flexible approach rather than that set out in Article 19 of the renewable energy directive?

I call Deputy Fitzmaurice to make a brief point.

I will be very brief. If I have forestry or sequestration practices on my farm, who gets the carbon credits?

I also have a brief question. We are after covering a lot of ground and getting away from the main point anyway. I understand that there is a crop called camelina which is viable in Ireland. I understand that it is not really that well grown but I believe it can be used for aircraft fuel. Could that possibility be developed further? I understand it is a very good break crop.

Mr. James Cogan

There are a number of options for aircraft fuel. The challenge with aircraft fuel is that it is not taxed. It is very cheap for airline operators and there is little incentive for them to swap to anything at all. There are different crops that could be more efficient for producing specific types of fuels. The only caveat I would raise is that one would have a very vulnerable chain if one were to create a little walled garden market going from the farmer who learns how to plant, grow and cultivate a new crop to a firm that processes it to a company that buys it and puts it in its aircraft. One broken link and the rest of it falls down. One part of the chain is the legislation around it. It is preferable to stick with the ones we know and to stick to crop types that can be expanded or contracted in an elastic way depending on a number of other things in order that they are not entirely dependent on one processor who is dependent on one regulation and one customer who is prepared to pay more for ten years while the rest of it gets off the ground. Therefore, the answer is "yes, but".

Dr. Hendrick had his hand up.

Dr. Eugene Hendrick

I thank Deputy Fitzmaurice for the question about the carbon credits. They will be used in order that Ireland complies with its targets between 2021 and 2030 on a national level. Basically, they will be used for national compliance if the current proposal relating to the effort-sharing decision and the role forests will play is agreed.

If I plant forestry on my land, is Dr. Hendrick saying that the State is using the carbon credits even though it is my forestry?

Dr. Eugene Hendrick

The carbon credits are used at national level to make the compliance, if agreed, between 2021 and 2030.

However, carbon credits are traded around the world and people own them. Is Dr. Hendrick saying we are different, that the State uses them and that the farmer does not own the carbon credits on his land?

Dr. Eugene Hendrick

To be clear on the carbon credits, one must distinguish between what is called the voluntary market, which is traded internationally or in certain jurisdictions, and a compliance market. In the voluntary market there are markets for voluntary offsetting and so forth. However, in terms of the afforestation programme in Ireland that would potentially be eligible for use to make a compliance statement, that is the compliance market. It is not as if it is traded or whatever. It is for Ireland to make its compliance with its national target in the EU. It is not a traded commodity in that sense.

The witness is saying one cannot trade a carbon credit, even if one owns it, in Ireland.

Dr. Eugene Hendrick

One cannot use it. It may potentially be used in a voluntary market but the amount of carbon that would be sequestered by forests in Ireland - incidentally, it is not all forests but a category of afforestation over 20 or 30 years depending on what is agreed between 2021 and 2030 - would be used for compliance. That is not a tradeable commodity at present in respect of Ireland's compliance. It is used for Ireland's compliance with its targets; it is not a traded commodity.

If I own a forestry can I go on the American market? The Department might be using it but can I use it if I own the forestry? There are places in America where one can trade credits. Can the individual do that?

Dr. Eugene Hendrick

It is not good practice to use a tonne of carbon twice. The tonne of carbon used for compliance is used to make us compliant with our target. It is not good practice to use that same tonne again in an offsetting market. It is better to use it just once to make a compliance amount.

Will Mr. Brady deal with the last question?

Mr. Kevin Brady

With regard to Article 19 and the timeframe for this change, it is still at working group level and it has to move to the Council, so it will probably be 2018, 2019 or 2020. It is probably more appropriate to think of wind farms and Article 19 in terms of the renewable electricity support scheme and the next support scheme for the next wind farms that will be built. The key point is that this is under public consultation and has not yet been finalised, so the terms and conditions of that scheme, what they might allow the wind farm developers to do and so forth are still under consideration and discussion. That point must be taken into consideration.

If one is going to support more than just wind, and I understand that is under consideration at present, one possibly could support solar energy and offshore wind. These are all things that can be considered. If a foreign direct investment company wishes to come here and be associated with a green energy generator, it cannot get any carbon credits for that under Article 19. The suggestion is that some other agreement could be entered into whereby the State is not fully paying the support payment and perhaps this other company could co-pay or there could be some type of contribution by the FDI company. I understand the rigidity of Article 19 at present but obviously suggestions have to come forward as to how to make it more flexible and responsive whereby one has the generation of renewables but one is also getting buy-in from FDI and there is more economic growth on the back of that.

Mr. Kevin Brady

Article 19 does not create a barrier to that. It might be the terms and conditions of the existing REFIT schemes. That is why I made the point that in the new renewable electricity support scheme there is potential for that to be different. There is nothing to support a company building a wind farm, having the guarantees of origin from that wind farm and effectively counting them off its data centre if it funds the wind farm. That is available at present. Should it be allowed in conjunction with the new electricity support scheme? That is key feedback from the public consultation that needs to be included in the development of that scheme.

Clearly, if I have a data centre I might not have expertise in developing wind farms or some other renewable energy source, so we must make provision for people to be able to enter agreements with each other about this and for it to be facilitated by the State.

That would be a discussion for another day.

Deputy Fitzmaurice made an interesting point and Dr. Hendrick answered it. However, is it not the case that we already have installations in this country that are allowed to trade up to a certain emission level and can buy credits? There are such installations and the Deputy is asking whether the farmer could potentially sell those credits to these installations. Obviously, only certain companies fall under this definition and they are already able to trade emissions in some way. That was really Deputy Fitzmaurice's question.

Dr. Eugene Hendrick

I thank the Senator for the clarification. It is not allowable under the emissions trading scheme to use forestry credits to make compliance. One can only trade allowances under the emissions trading scheme itself, or if one does not meet one's particular emission level one can trade off the balance. They are not allowable under the current effort sharing regulation and there is no provision in the new proposal currently under negotiation for forestry credits to be allowed under the emissions trading scheme.

I thank the members and witnesses. We have had an interesting and wide ranging discussion on the matter. I hope it has been useful for everybody involved. I thank the witnesses for attending the meeting to discuss the matter.

The joint committee adjourned at 6.25 p.m. until 4 p.m. on Tuesday, 7 November 2017.
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