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Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement díospóireacht -
Thursday, 29 Feb 2024

Women and Constitutional Change: Discussion

Apologies have been received from Senator Mullen. On behalf of the committee, I welcome Professor Fidelma Ashe, professor of politics at the Transitional Justice Institute at Ulster University, to discuss women and constitutional change. I thank her for attending.

I have to read this note on parliamentary privilege. There are limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege. However, witnesses and participants who are to give evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts does and may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on this matter. Witnesses are asked to note that only evidence connected with the subject matter of the proceedings should be given and should respect directions given by the Chair. Witnesses should respect parliamentary practice to the effect, where possible, they should neither criticise nor make charges against any persons, person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Professor Ashe to make her opening statement. For her information, thereafter we will go to members, who will have a maximum of ten minutes to discuss the issue with her. It is informal in that respect. The aim is to elicit and support, if we can, views she will express. She is very welcome.

Professor Fidelma Ashe

I thank the committee for inviting me. It is great to be here. My comments are based on published work that examines the gender dimensions of the Good Friday Agreement, GFA, as well as work I have been doing through the past four years which engages with the provisions for a unity referendum in the agreement. I worked with colleagues, namely, Eilish Rooney and Joanna McMinn, on all three projects. Thanks to Higher Education Authority, HEA, funding, I have recently been able to work with Nuala Finnegan and colleagues at University College Cork. In total, the three projects facilitated the inclusion of a diverse range of women in discussions around that provision for a border poll. Based on the findings, my view, which is not necessarily the view of the entire team but they would probably agree with me if they were here, is that based on the findings, a number of conclusions can be drawn.

Any border poll will be conducted in a context of uneven power relationships. Some groups will have more influence and more decision-making power in the process than others. I am not just thinking of women, although they will comprise one of those other groups. Women are key stakeholders in constitutional discussions and change. We know from international studies that women's involvement increases legitimacy and good decision-making around constitutional change. However, if care is not taken, gender issues and women could be easily pushed to the periphery as other issues are given much more priority in any debates. The participants in the research, the women who were involved, identified multiple and significant barriers to participation.

A citizens' assembly is a very useful tool but it must be supplemented by wider and deeper forms of participation. The mechanism of a citizens' assembly is insufficient to allow numerous groups of women to participate. Our work has illustrated that participatory forums need to be shaped around the participants and also that facilitators need to reach into communities and draw people into the participatory spaces. Our model has been much more rigorous in reaching out to people, ensuring they have no fears or anxiety about participation and assuring them that these are respectful and safe spaces for them to discuss any issues they want. That kind of model of participation will increase the legitimacy of any potential process of constitutional change. I am sorry to be the one to tell the committee this but it is going to require extensive funding from the Government to be successful. We have some international models that are very interesting and were quite successful. The models are there. Regardless of their position on the national question, all of the women who participated in our research believed strongly it was important to make Northern Ireland work. Across the range of women, the most important issues for now and for any potential future include socioeconomic issues, human rights and equality. Those were the most pressing issues for the women who participated in our research.

The more aggressive the debates, the more off-putting discussions of constitutional change would be for women. Aggressive debate will also drive women's insecurity and could increase their fears of participation. We found that women from a range of social groups, and we had a broad spread, felt they had a lot to contribute to discussions on constitutional change but also felt that their participation and their voices would not be listened to by policymakers. Participants pointed to the importance of civic forums, meaningful consultation, representation, political champions for women and open, safe and inclusive forums for dialogue where women would not just be listened to but heard and, most important, responded to, and that there would be some kind of feedback or recognition that they had been listened to.

I will summarise a few of the conclusions of the research. Governments have a responsibility under international law to ensure that women can participate in peacebuilding processes and in public and political debates. It is very important that governments work to reduce the barriers to women's participation and ensure that women's participation is free from threat. Women have a right to clear, accessible and non-ideological information which they identify as an important participatory resource. That was underlined to us several times across a range of women. In respect of any future form of constitutional change, it is my view that socioeconomic plans need to be clearly outlined before any referendum. If there are information vacuums, they are prone to be filled with misinformation.

I have covered the main findings of the research so perhaps committee members would like to ask questions.

That is interesting. There is a summary and a plan to give effect to it. That is the part we hope to be able to come up with. Senator Black wishes to come in first.

I thank the committee members for allowing me to come in first and I also thank Professor Ashe for coming to the meeting. I totally agree with everything she is saying with regard, in particular, to planning and preparing. If there is going to be a referendum, that planning is vital and must be a priority at this point. In November, the committee heard from Professor Jennifer Todd and Dr. Joanne McEvoy. They spoke about the need for organic and systemic deliberation. They said, as Professor Ashe did, that many of these issues circle back to funding. I would like her to expand on that point a little because it is very important.

Northern Ireland has had great success with cross-community programmes, particularly youth programmes. We have heard young people speak about those youth programmes. It was noted at another of the meetings of the committee that some state-run initiatives do not reach those grassroots spaces. Is that something we need to explore? Could a cross-community and cross-Border initiative be of benefit? How does Professor Ashe think it would be of benefit? I would like her to expand a little on that point.

Can we strike a balance between resources and the need for a safe, participant-led space? Those are my initial questions and I will come back in to ask a couple more if there is time.

Professor Fidelma Ashe

I thank the Senator for her questions. I am aware of the work of Professor Jennifer Todd and Dr. Joanne McEvoy.

We have similar findings. I do not know if Professor Todd or Dr. McEvoy mentioned this, but the projects we are involved in are really labour-intensive. I cannot stress that enough. From a personal point of view, the funding we have received over the years - I think we have been funded by different funders for about four years now - is really insufficient, and the projects are very labour-intensive, especially for the lead academics. It takes a lot of resources to be able to do this. There is the preparatory work. As members can imagine, one cannot just storm into a community group and say, "We are going to talk about a unity referendum or have a constitutional debate." One has to take baby steps, gain people's trust, establish a relationship with them and then work from those foundations towards starting to shape some sort of dialogic space in which they will feel comfortable. There are, therefore, no shortcuts here but, as I said during the presentation, there are some international examples of large-scale participatory programmes. I have been working with Eilish Rooney on a plan and a shape for a civic education programme that could work across the Border. That will be to provide an educational space where people could be informed and able to find answers to the questions to which they want answers. We have worked up a model of what that might look like.

The other aspect of our work has been to develop, taking small steps, an expert library. We have interviewed academics, and every single one of them was more than happy to be involved. For example, there are people doing research on health and the economy and very current research on the media and on other referendums, such as the Scottish one. We have been able to interview them and ask them questions and they have been able to respond in a very accessible way. That gives the grassroots direct access to expert information. That is another aspect that could be built up such that we could have that resource for people and they would not have to be physically present but could use virtual environments. That would be another important aspect of any strategy going forward.

Great.

I am conscious of the time. In Professor Ashe's opinion, how significant is a woman's educational experience to her participation in these discussions? Some people from the North who come to the South to study often find it more difficult to have those constitutional and political discussions here than they would at home. When they are on their own turf, it is easier. Has Professor Ashe heard similar perspectives previously? Has she any ideas as to how communities or educational institutions and policymakers here can encourage that meaningful engagement, particularly for women?

Professor Fidelma Ashe

It depends on which kind of background the women are coming from. It has to be tailored to that. On paper, engagement with university-educated women looks easier, but the more we know, the more complex the issues are. What we have found about women participating is that, unlike university-educated women, they sometimes feel they do not have the information, do not have the technical expertise and do not have the confidence to participate. Perhaps we could encourage women going through the education system to become more comfortable with those discussions but I would need to speak to those women before I could shape some way for them to engage around those constitutional questions.

How does Professor Ashe think she can prepare them for that? From her perspective, what would be the procedure, or how would she manage that? That is really important. Obviously, they will be anxious, so how would she manage to prepare them for that?

Professor Fidelma Ashe

The first thing we have to reassure people of is that the facilitators do not take a position on the constitutional question. That is central. If people feel there is any bias in a dialogic space, that is very off-putting for them.

The second issue is whether this will create discord or whether arguments will develop. I have to structure the sessions using prompts and questions that will ensure there is no tension in the room. I tried to use a system of connectors and dividers. Connectors are those issues I have talked about already, that is, those socioeconomic issues that resonate with all women, no matter the identity background they come from or their position on the constitutional question. We can start by thinking about education, women's security or healthcare. From that point, from that connector, we can work outwards and then start to have a discussion about what an all-island healthcare system would look like. We have the foundation of a connector that connects all people and then we can move slowly into other areas that are more related to the issue of constitutional change on the island.

I thank Professor Ashe. This is fascinating. I apologise for having to leave. I have another engagement.

I thank Professor Ashe for being here. It is very important, given the week that is in it that the committee recognises the movement during the week on the Belfast High Court ruling on the legacy Bill because that was a substantial piece of our work in supporting the families, Amnesty International and so on. It fits in as well with the committee's visit to the Springhill and Westrock inquest last week.

On that, and without affecting your time, Deputy, I agree fully with you. Actually, having been there, I think we should go up again. We can consult with the families when they think it would be appropriate. We will be going up to the North at some stage. We have other items for next week's meeting but we should definitely go up because it was very enlightening, and to listen to the evidence was shocking. I could not believe what I was hearing, and people do not realise how fundamental the process is to have a complete and natural end to the inquest rather than cutting it off. Second, if there are legal and other proceedings after it, they should continue, and nobody should get immunity on any side.

Exactly, and I commend your leadership as Chair in that regard. I know that the families really appreciated it as well last week.

We will definitely go back up.

It is very clear that Bill needs to be repealed because it is not compatible with human rights legislation-----

-----as was ruled on. It is important to say that today. We will continue as a committee in that regard.

I am really glad that Professor Ashe is here today. I thank her for taking the time to be with us.

This is the piece of work the committee is doing in relation to women, in particular women and constitutional change and women and the Constitution. I commend the witnesses on all the work they have done with others in that regard. It is very helpful to the committee. I hear what they said around health and the other issues. The aim of the committee is to take the sentiment out of it, if you like, and look at all these areas to see what things look like from where people are standing, whether they are individuals, families or community groups, and from their perspective. That is what we are trying to tease out.

I ask the witnesses to develop the model around civic education and wider engagement, especially with women, and what the Government needs to do. I hear what they said regarding the substantial funding needed for it, but it is an essential investment. What investment is required from the Government? What framework would need to be developed to enable that work to carry on to continue to build on the very good work being done by the witnesses and others?

Professor Fidelma Ashe

I thank the Deputy. Those are great questions. Our projects have been quite small. We have been able to include approximately 150 women from different backgrounds. However, we honestly believe that we need to scale up this work dramatically. There are so many barriers, not just for women but other groups. Any programme of civic education would have to encapsulate those other groups, which mainly include different types of men.

What does the Uganda model, for instance, look like? It is to have an outline in our heads of what "good" would look like in this situation.

Professor Fidelma Ashe

As part of the process of constitutional change in Uganda, its Government funded a constitutional commission. That commission engaged in wide-scale civic engagement. It involved many thousands of people and hundreds of communities. The commission sent facilitators out to engage directly with those people. As it was so wide, it increased, to some degree, the legitimacy of the process, although there were still criticisms of that process. This is what the experts who looked at that case study are saying. It was also able to encapsulate women. Encapsulating women led to women asserting certain rights within that constitution and those provisions were in the final constitutional framework. To summarise, wide-scale participation enables us to ensure that it is a democratic process, that all different types of people are included, that they have the information they need, and that they have reliable information. That is what people ask for at every workshop. They are referring to the Brexit referendum and are worried it will be a similar process as regards the kind of information flow they will receive. The programme of civic education addresses that problem directly.

Again, it is not just about informing people or detailing the process as they go forward. It is also ensuring, on any initial plan, that communities can have feedback. People at the grassroots level have certain types of knowledge and experiences that they have built up over decades. Those experiences and that knowledge are very valuable. That system of civic education allows that flow of information to policymakers.

I am very interested in the constitutional commission that was set up. If the Government were to make a decision to do that tomorrow morning, who would be on the commission? Will Professor Ashe explain a little better what it might look like? Obviously, that commission would then implement all of this work. Who would be on it? What would it look like? Do we know how much funding or investment it would need initially?

Professor Fidelma Ashe

I do not know how much funding was given to the commission. I imagine it must have been quite a substantial sum, given the range and depth of its engagement with communities.

Over what period was it held?

Professor Fidelma Ashe

From memory, it was over a couple of years. It was primarily legal experts who were on that commission. Some communities raised issues about bias in the commission but the experts are saying that, overall, it was viewed as a positive process.

There are different options. It does not have to be the Government. If it is, then there are always those issues of bias. It is possible to site this engagement in universities. There can be university programmes that will encompass and address these issues. One of the issues that would have to be dealt with if it were placed within the university sector would be, in my view, that there should be no prerequisite for being able to join those courses. They would be like continuous professional development courses and it would be open to all communities to be able to benefit from that. Again, that would have to be underpinned by a process of reaching out to communities. Rather than just the traditional way of advertising courses in a prospectus, you would have to go out to communities and explain to them what the system of civic education is designed to do, what its aims are, what their role in it would be, and what the benefits would be to them. There would be quite a bit of preparatory work before that.

I mentioned the Government having a framework because it should not reinvent the wheel. It is so there is an exchange of learning and a moving forward all the time.

Maybe the witnesses can answer that through the other questions.

We will come back. There is no problem. Deputy Smith has left but he is asking a question in the Dáil and will come back.

The summary we have been given is very important. I will build on Deputy Conway-Walsh's questions regarding the idea of a model for all of this. I do not think there would be any problem with it in the South because there is significant concern that this happens appropriately and properly, and that people in the North accept and want it. It would not be an issue here to have a commission but Northern Ireland is a different jurisdiction, where there are stronger political views and opposing sides. I like what the witnesses said. I do not think there would be any problem here. It would be very constructive engagement and would also help inform the debate, a lot of which is taking place. Different parties have different views on this, but we have to get buy-in from everybody and look at all aspects of it.

I agree with the comments about human rights, socioeconomic issues and equality. These are key, not just for women but for everybody. They apply universally, as referenced in the last point made on other marginalised groups. I ask for more detail on the Uganda model, and any other model, so we can unpack the nuts and bolts, for want of a better term, of how they did it, and how we could address the question in the North. There is obviously opposition to a poll, which, at present, will only happen when the Secretary of State sees it as an alternative.

However, it will still be divisive. It is important to take the division out and debate the issue, as Professor Ashe proposes, right down to every single level in society. Professor Ashe may be able to comment on that.

Professor Fidelma Ashe

The Cathaoirleach is covering the key questions that arise when we think about any process of constitutional change. It is difficult to know where to start. The difference between Uganda and the island of Ireland at the moment is that Uganda had a plan. Members will recall that in the Scottish referendum there was a 670-page plan. Uganda had something similar. However, you do not have to start at that point. That can be a part of the process but there is a piece of work to do before any plan emerges and that can inform any plan. The key issue is to reduce the fear that talking about constitutional change will somehow make it happen or that it will end up in arguments. If it is handled correctly and if discursive spaces are created in a particular way, it does not have to be as divisive as we might expect. We have had unionist women, Irish nationalist women, women from new communities, LGBTQI+ women - all different kinds of women - and we have been able to have a conversation about these issues, to put it bluntly, without anybody falling out with anyone else. It is possible.

I do not disagree with Professor Ashe on that. The point is, notwithstanding what she said, there will be other forces out there trying to monopolise the debate, as she rightly acknowledged, and there will be vested interests and so on. I do not disagree with her. At the end of the day, those of us who believe in unity and those who do not have to persuade the other side, for want of a better word, that their arguments hold and will get a majority of votes. Either people want to be part of the United Kingdom or we will have to put a proposal where we will have one place for everybody, which is not as black and white as the term "unity referendum" might indicate. It could be far more comprehensive, consultative and welcoming.

Professor Fidelma Ashe

There are different academic views on this. I have heard it mentioned that we do not really have a fully developed plan-----

No, we do not.

Professor Fidelma Ashe

Some people are advocating that we should not have a plan before we go to the referendum but to have the plan afterwards. I do not share that view. The plan is really important. From my work and that of Professor Jennifer Todd and Dr. Joanne McEvoy, we have found that the key issues for people are socioeconomic ones. There is going to be division and dispute if we reach the point of a border poll. There is no way around that. What we can do is try to reduce the amount of division and the impact any border poll would have on community relationships. People are very worried about that but this is why some of us as academics are arguing for expanding these kinds of engagements with people so that we can reduce the divisiveness of the debate if people have the right information and information they can trust. The information cannot be fear driven because fear-driven knowledge will increase division. It is also important that people feel they are being acknowledged and recognised and that their position, no matter what it is, is being respected. We found that will reduce divisiveness. Then, of course, it is also about the big issues. People really want to know what kind of standard of living they would have in any future Ireland. What would the healthcare and transport systems be? They want to know what will happen to their pensions and if there is going to be free childcare. These are what we used to call the bread-and-butter issues. When you focus on those issues, what we have found - and I can only say what we have found - is it decreases divisiveness over the constitutional questions and other identity issues. They are still going to be there.

I do not disagree with anything Professor Ashe has said and I support the agenda she has put before the committee. It is obviously something we have been thinking about. I had not thought about the idea of a commission before. Nobody is threatened if everybody gains. If there is a benefit for everybody, certainly in respect of their economic and social access and health, that is what it is all about. We also have to look at the economics, how that future will be funded and the package put together and the fact that people may still refuse that. There is no point in having a referendum if you are not going to win it. The problem with Scotland is that the referendum had not been thought through, notwithstanding all the plans they had. As Professor Ashe suggested, we need to be far more comprehensive in our interaction and acknowledge those issues.

I will go back to Sinn Féin now and then Fianna Fáil. There are some people online as well.

I fully agree with much of what Professor Ashe said. I want to see a border poll and a referendum. My party is consistently calling for a plan and preparation for that to happen. We cannot just walk into a referendum and a poll without preparation. I know we have been calling for a citizens' assembly but I think what Professor Ashe is talking about is a plan prior to that where we engage with as many people as possible and formulate what the discussion should be at a citizens' assembly. She is right that reaching out to women, especially those who are marginalised, is extremely important. I am the Sinn Féin spokesperson for disability and I am aware that disabled constantly feel they are not engaged with or they are overlooked even in matters that pertain to them. Disabled women in particular would say they are doubly marginalised because they are female and disabled. This applies to other minority groups as well.

I am interested in the study Professor Ashe did. A number of workshops were held which engaged with 20 groups, each of between six and 12 participants. How did she get those women involved? Who did she reach out to in order to involve the women in those workshops and engage with them? Something similar will have to be done on a larger scale if we are serious about this.

Professor Fidelma Ashe

That was the original work we conducted over two years. It was in the middle of the Covid pandemic so we had the added torture of having to do it online in the end. Now we have more time in the workshops so we are able to conduct them over a Friday and a Saturday, which is fantastic.

We have groups of disabled women coming in the next few weeks to take part in a workshop. This matter is important. Two years ago, I used to go to conferences and meetings, talk to co-ordinators of groups and tell them we were setting up workshops on constitutional conversations. They would respond by asking whether the conversations would be on unity and I would say “Yes”. There would be immediate fear among the co-ordinators and they would say their group did not take a position on the constitutional issue. One really had to work with co-ordinators of groups from that point forward. Again, the key is to ensure people know that all perspectives on the constitutional issue are respected and that we are going to talk about socio-economic issues, security, civic participation and the exclusion of certain groups.

Our agenda is not necessarily to determine how to have constitutional change but to ensure that all people, including marginalised groups and groups that are devalued and not listened to but that have important knowledge, can participate. It is a question of breaking down the fear through the way workshops are shaped and providing a workshop structure that is not threatening to people and allows them to talk in comfort. Everyone has had experiences with healthcare. Most women have had experiences related to security. Most women would understand the difficulties associated with trying to engage politically. All these issues comprise very familiar ground but, on the basis of that ground, one can move to other issues, such as a Border poll. It is easier to open discussions on socio-economic issues than discussions on identity. That is not to displace the latter in any way but it is a matter of opening up space so identity issues do not completely saturate the ground for discussion. The identity issues already receive much focus, so it is a matter of opening additional space for ordinary people to talk about the issues that matter most to them.

Everyone has asked me about the funding. There is no easy way around this. A citizens’ assembly would be much cheaper but would not have the participatory impact of broader forms of work.

Ms Michelle Gildernew

Professor Ashe is very welcome. It is great to see her at the meeting. It has been very interesting to hear about the experiences and the importance of good consultation. I am sure Professor Ashe, having worked on transitional justice issues, has witnessed the negative impact that unequal representation in state institutions has had on women, including those dealing with the police, courts and associated systems. These institutions, despite equal-opportunities legislation and affirmative-action measures, are mostly male dominated. With that in mind, could Professor Ashe identify how, within a new constitution, the rights of women in the sense of full and equal participation and representation in all aspects of state institutions and governance could be guaranteed?

I recognise the difficulty some women have regarding the democratic deficit. Women from working-class loyalist communities are among them. I agree with Deputy Tully that women with disabilities are particularly marginalised. If we planned all our infrastructure, including our transport system, schools and hospitals, based on the needs of people with disabilities all the time, it would be better for everyone. I thank Professor Ashe. I hope she is able to answer my questions.

Deputy Pauline Tully took the Chair.

Professor Fidelma Ashe

The issue of representation was really important to our participants. As Ms Gildernew knows, representation by women in Stormont has increased dramatically since the signing of the Good Friday Agreement. In 1998, it was 14% and it is now over 30%. I am not sure of the exact percentage.

Ms Michelle Gildernew

I was one of the 14% back in 1998.

Professor Fidelma Ashe

The good aspect is that we do have experience of how to get from 14% to over 30%, which is the tipping point. However, we really want to have 50%. Progress has been made in the jurisdiction. In southern Ireland, many women feel disappointed that the rate of representation by women in the Parliament is so low, at 23% or 24%. Not to put too fine a point on it, that is dire by international standards. Therefore, considerable work needs to be done in this area.

Let me draw on some work I have done and also on work by colleagues who examined women’s representation. We have to start with the parties and who they are selecting for safe seats. One can twin and have women’s lists and various mechanisms that the parties themselves can use. The parties must enter a period of reflection on the emphasis they are going to place on, the importance they are going to attach to and how rigorously and aggressively they will drive forward the programme to increase women’s representation. Research in Stormont indicates voters do like women candidates. In this regard, we should remember who we have at the moment. Therefore, we know it is not necessarily voters who are resistant to women. We really need to start with the parties and ascertain how they are fielding women and the kinds of political experiences they are opening up for them. In my view – this will not be popular – parties must not wait for women to come to them; they need to actively and aggressively go out to women and encourage them to enter political life.

If they feel there are women who already have the necessary skills, be they from a business background or another suitable background, they should act on that. That is really the only way to do it. As Ms Gildernew knows, there are mechanisms that can be used to increase women’s representation.

Ms Michelle Gildernew

I am lucky enough to be in a party that has really prioritised women’s representation and has ensured it is making space and giving women the skills they need to be a fundamental part of political life.

I asked about the Judiciary. I cringe when I hear that in every case of alleged rape, a legal representative stands up and asks what the woman was wearing. There are questions that should never be asked in court. There is an automatic bias against women who come up against the police, Judiciary and other such organisations. Sometimes there is misogyny meted out to them even before they open their mouths or do anything. They never get a fair hearing in front of some of our judges, and that has to change, too.

Professor Fidelma Ashe

Let us think about it. Division is a new Ireland. As important as they might be, we cannot just think about national anthems and flags and those kinds of issues. We also have to think about what way our systems of justice work and whether they need to be looked at. Do they need to be investigated? I have doctoral students who are doing really dedicated work on the issue that was talked about in rape trials. What they are finding is disturbing. If we are to be serious about women's rights and about protecting women's security all these issues need to go up the political agenda because my fear is, as national identity issues come more and more into focus in unity debates, all of these other issues Ms Gildernew spoke of will fall from view. We cannot call that a democratic process. We really cannot.

Ms Michelle Gildernew

I thank Professor Ashe.

I thank Ms Gildernew. Does Deputy Conway-Walsh want to come back in?

No, I think we are okay. One thing I would ask about, but we would be able to source it ourselves, is details of the international models outlined by Professor Ashe. It would be very important to put those in any report, so we could learn from them. I am sure there are differences between them that we could then come up with a model through an exchange of learning from those. What does Professor Ashe think?

Professor Fidelma Ashe

I think that is a great idea. I have tried to read as much as I can on those models. The work with the communities takes an awful lot of my time but I try to read around as much as I can, although not as much as I want to. I would have references for that work in Uganda. That is the work but what is done with the work afterwards is a different matter and there may be lessons to be learned there as well about how we implement what we have planned to do. They would be important lessons for us on the island. I can furnish the committee with that. That is not an issue.

That would be really useful. Notwithstanding the focused investment that needs to be in this area, there are some opportunities as well under PEACEPLUS around the exchange between local authorities across the island. We should have women's groups in Mayo, Cork or different counties able to exchange with communities in the North and have a framework and the academic involvement. The action research we gather in all of this is hugely important. That it is much more than just the exchange of ideas but that it should be captured and documented in a way that it is evidence and that we are building up that picture. The return for investment in that type of work is invaluable. I speak with my public expenditure hat on. Maybe we could talk about the return on investment and the cost in the longer term if we do not do that work.

Professor Fidelma Ashe

The cost would be a lot higher. The thing is we do not have to do it all at the one time. We can do it in stages and that is probably the best way to do it because we can have the feedback from phase one and then reformulate phases two and three. We could start to work with particular groups in a particular area along the Border, for example, which would seem to be an important area to start this work on. Then from that point we could start to reach out. We do not have to finance the entire programme but we can finance it in stages, see what the benefits from it are and whether the benefits are cost-effective. Then we could move from that point forward.

I want this to get to Mayo as quickly as possible and I have liaised with the local authority there in terms of doing some of this work. It is awfully important for us to acknowledge the courage of a lot of the women in these communities who are coming forward to discuss and share their thoughts and ideas with us. I know the committee really values that because it is certainly not easy. There are many barriers to it as Professor Ashe identified. I would encourage those groups, some of whom we have had in the Oireachtas, to continue doing the really good work that is being done across communities. I know the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach, Deputy Tully, will agree. It is not often acknowledged, because the media looks for the sensational things in its reporting. However, the extraordinary work and the ordinary work being done at grassroots community level and driven by Dr. Ashe and others we will hear about as we continue this piece of work is really valuable to what we are doing.

Professor Fidelma Ashe

I think they will welcome hearing that because they feel they are devalued, sidelined and not listened to. Often they do a lot of work around consultations and spend a lot of time on that and do not get any response or feedback. It must be very disheartening. We need a bit of a culture change and some more recognition of the work people to at community level.

I want Professor Ashe to bring back to the groups she is working with that the committee really values that work, that they are heard and their opinions really matter. I hope they will see that as the committee evolves with this piece of work. I thank Professor Ashe and look forward to further exchanges in the future. The shared island unit is coming in to the committee next week and that is one of the things we will put to it as well, around the consideration of more investment in this area to enable Professor Ashe and others to continue to do the really good work they are doing.

I thank Professor Ashe for her attendance and for her participation in this very important discussion. It is really appreciated.

Professor Fidelma Ashe

I thank the Acting Chair.

Is Deputy Smith coming back in? Everybody else has contributed so would he like to?

I thank the Acting Chair. Apologies, I had to go to the Chamber as I had questions there. Was this research carried out on an all-Ireland basis?

Professor Fidelma Ashe

Yes.

Grand. I welcome the fact that Professor Ashe mentioned the importance of reaching marginalised groups and people who unfortunately did not have a great opportunity to achieve great levels of skills or educational attainment.

I remember at a meeting of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly we held in Stormont in March 2023 I arranged for the members of the Women's Coalition to attend and talk about their experience of the talks and in the Assembly in its first iteration. The Women's Coalition did very valuable work and their work was lauded by people of all parties and by the British and Irish Governments as well. I remember some of the Women's Coalition leaders saying at the time that they were very conscious when they were established of the need to get women involved in the peace talks. Going back to 1996, I remember they said that it was unlikely that they would have a good strong voice for women, particularly to make the talks inclusive and particularly for people from marginalised communities. The Women's Coalition's contribution, along with other political parties, was very important in the successful outcome to those talks. They also spoke at that meeting about the need to have champions for women from all backgrounds. I remember that day Karin Smyth, who was a British Labour MP, spoke about the contribution over the years of Baroness May Blood. I knew May very well because she had been a member of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly going back many years and was a great champion for the disadvantaged and for people from marginalised communities, and for women's voices as well.

She was a trailblazer at a time when politics was difficult in Northern Ireland and in the community she came from. However, she spoke on behalf of all the people, particularly those who were less well-off and marginalised. It is important that there is good buy-in and participation from women in any constitutional talks, discussions and dialogue going forward. I strongly accept the point Professor Ashe made around citizens' assemblies. They can be valuable but much more extensive dialogue at sectoral level is needed because there are many issues around what the future constitutional position of this country will be. It will not be a matter of a majority North and South. If we are to have a united Ireland, we must outline what our health system, education system and policing service, as well as our likely funding model of raising taxation to pay for services, would be. That is very important.

As regards the shared island concept, there are shared island dialogues on different issues. There is a youth forum and there have been different forums covering different aspects of everyday living. From this point of view, we can learn. It is the type of model in which as much participation as possible is needed.

I welcome the work Professor Ashe has done. Has she or any of her colleagues who led on this research engaged with people like Monica McWilliams, Bronagh Hinds and others who were involved in the Women's Coalition to draw on their experience? Nowadays, there is a tendency to ignore the experience of people who have been through a process and what they have learned from it and what wisdom they can impart on people going forward for similar discussions or talks in the future. We need to draw on the experience and expertise of people.

This committee, led by the Cathaoirleach, Deputy Fergus O'Dowd, did a major a piece of work on the Good Friday Agreement on its 25th anniversary. It met the architects of the Good Friday Agreement such as Bertie Ahern, Jonathan Powell, who was close to Tony Blair and his chief of staff, John Major, John Bruton and other senior civil servants from both our Government and from the British side. It met with political leaders from the Northern Ireland parties as well. We all learned from what they outlined and the experiences they had in the talks process.

I welcome every bit of research that can be done. It is important to ensure that any negotiations going forward are as inclusive as possible and that it is not the same or usual people participating in these discussions. It is important we also have people who are representative of society in general.

Professor Fidelma Ashe

I know Monica McWilliams and Bronagh Hinds very well. I am a member of a local peacebuilding group which convenes every couple of months to discuss peacebuilding issues and they both attend. The work I am doing now is very much based on the experience of the Women's Coalition. The work I referred to, the published work, is in the form of a book that looks at all the gender dimensions of the Good Friday Agreement.

As for the debate on constitutional change, the provisions the Women's Coalition achieved in the Good Friday Agreement are important aspects. They included the civic forum, which was an important participatory forum that may not have been ideal in its original form but could have been worked up. However, we lost it. The Women's Coalition inserted provisions on shared education, addressing social needs and the rights of victims and survivors. It was involved in putting all of those provisions in the agreement but other issues took priority and those issues became part and parcel of the political culture and were the ones that were debated. I believe there is a lot to be learned there. A concern of mine is that women will be brought into this process and be viewed as good for the process, as contributing to and benefiting the process, but their aspirations and objectives will be slowly pushed to the side after any decisions have been made.

As the Deputy said, it is important to look back at the last period of constitutional change in 1998, at the Women's Coalition and its aspirations. It is important to have a deep focus on the connection or bridge between policymakers and the grassroots. The importance of that bridge from the grassroots to political forums is something that women flagged up in our research. I am not sure if that answers the question but I could not go back home if anyone thought I was ignoring Monica McWilliams.

I am not sure if Professor Ashe knew May Blood, who we should always mention because she was a voice of reason in the most difficult of times.

Professor Fidelma Ashe

The Deputy is talking about giant figures. Thankfully, we are now able to celebrate these women and give them the proper recognition they deserve. However, I wish to say that while women are really important and contribute a lot politically, we also have needs and rights. It is not just about our contribution. May Blood and Monica McWilliams fought for concrete rights that we can achieve as well.

I thank all members for their participation. I thank Professor Ashe for her presentation and engagement in answering our questions. She has given us all a lot of food for thought.

The joint committee adjourned at 10.48 a.m. until 9.30 a.m on Thursday, 7 March 2024.
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