Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 6 Mar 2024

Vol. 1051 No. 1

Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate

Educational Disadvantage

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

I recently had the pleasure of visiting Le Chéile National School in Limerick. During the visit, I met with senior staff at the school who highlighted a number of major concerns regarding the absence of supports being made available to the children of the school. It is not a small school. It was built as part of the Limerick regeneration programme. It serves families from Southill and surrounding areas of Limerick and has an enrolment of 186 children aged between three and 12 years. The area that the school serves is, according to the Pobal deprivation index, the second most disadvantaged area in the entire State, with the label of “extremely disadvantaged” attached.

In my discussions with senior staff, they advised that they estimate from in-school assessments that 72% of the children have at least one additional need, be that educational, sensory, emotional, environmental, developmental or behavioural. Almost three in every four children attending the school have an additional need. I will repeat that statistic in the case the Minister of State thinks she misheard me - 72% of the children have at least one additional need, which is staggering. The staff have further advised that 38% of the pupils have two or more additional needs.

In detailing these figures, the staff members advised that for at least two years they have been making repeated pleas to the Department of Education but have received no support and or even an acknowledgment of the need for such supports. As far back as 2022, Le Chéile National School had sent emails to the Department of Education highlighting the urgent needs of these kids. During the back and forth of these emails, the staff were advised to contact the office of the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, and then to contact the office of the Minister of State, Deputy Madigan. During one of the email conversations, the school was advised to contact the HSE, which has the responsibility to provide these services. The response from the HSE was perhaps the worst received. It advised that it is up to the parents of the children to seek appointments with local services when those local services have waiting times of two to three years for an initial appointment, not even for a diagnosis.

A school located in the second-most deprived area of the State is seeking resources to improve the lives of its pupils and give them the best chance of an education, but is being passed from pillar to post in the quest for resources and told that the onus is on the parents of the children to seek appointments. The State is clearly failing these children. The school has some of the most incredible teachers, who are doing the best for these children, but the school is at an impasse. It has resorted to using school funds to have assessments done privately to help families who have reached crisis point.

What the school wants is support. What these children need is a wraparound level of support. What they are getting from multiple agencies and Departments, including the Department of Education, is a refusal to assist. One email response that the school received read: “Any funding for health services would have to be funded through the HSE who we don’t think will agree to the provision of these services.” The Department of Education has a duty of care to these children, a duty that I suggest is not being honoured. The Department of Education has numerous programmes to assist schools with high needs in Dublin but these have not been rolled out to other areas of the State. The 2016 census showed that seven out of the top ten most deprived areas of the State are in Limerick, so why are these programmes not being run outside of Dublin? Why are the supports not available to needy schools in Limerick? There is an immediate need for the school inclusion model to be rolled out to Le Chéile National School but when the school asked about this, the response it received stated: “Unless the Department of Education expand their School Inclusion Model Pilot, the resources you seek aren’t currently available as the HSE aren’t funding any posts to schools in Band 1”.

We know that education is the key to opening doors and lifting people out of poverty and deprivation, yet these children are being denied the tools they need because of their address. Children from the second-most disadvantaged area in the State are being denied the tools they need for success because of their postcode. I am asking the Minister of State and her Department to meet with senior staff at Le Chéile National School and then follow up and assist them in their need for additional supports. Will the Minister of State ensure that these children are given the tools they need to be best positioned to complete their educational journey?

Minister of State at the Department of Education (Deputy Josepha Madigan)

I thank the Deputy for raising this important topic. It is important to note at the outset that speech and language therapy, occupational therapy and physiotherapy services for children with disabilities predominantly fall under the auspices of the Minister for children while the Minister for Health retains oversight of primary care services and mental health support, which also falls under the remit of the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte. Following today’s Topical Issue matter, I will consult all three Ministers and bring this matter to their attention, particularly on the lack of therapeutic supports, which the Deputy mentioned in his contribution.

The Department of Education is deeply committed to ensuring that every child in Ireland receives the education and support they need to thrive, regardless of their background or circumstances. It is with this commitment in mind that the Department has embarked on a significant expansion of the DEIS programme, and the Deputy mentioned that Le Chéile National School is within the DEIS category. In March 2022, the Minister, Deputy Foley, announced a major expansion of DEIS. An additional €32 million investment in the programme from 2023 increased the Department’s overall spend on the DEIS programme to over €180 million. Approximately 260,000 students, or one in four of all students, are now supported in this programme.

Le Chéile National School, serving the children of the Galvone and Southill area of Limerick, has been categorised under urban band 1 within the DEIS programme. Urban band 1 schools receive the most comprehensive support under the DEIS programme in recognition of having the highest levels of concentrated disadvantage. The literacy and numeracy supports within the DEIS programme are integral to its aim of reducing educational disadvantage. As an urban 1 school, it has priority access to reading recovery, maths recovery, first steps and ready, set, go maths. Moreover, the school has access to the home school community liaison services and the school completion programme, which share the same national outcomes of improved attendance, improved participation and improved retention.

Le Chéile National School receives additional time allocation from the National Educational Psychological Service, NEPS, and a psychologist is assigned to the school. It has also benefited from a range of universal supports across both DEIS and non-DEIS schools aimed at fostering an inclusive and supportive learning environment.

Le Chéile National School, alongside all primary schools in Ireland, is part of the free primary schoolbooks scheme. This initiative has significantly relieved families of the costs of purchasing schoolbooks, including workbooks and copybooks. Schools have the flexibility to extend the benefits of this scheme to cover some classroom resources as well, thereby enhancing the learning environment for all pupils.

On special education, additional support is available through the special education teaching allocation for primary schools, which provides a single unified allocation for SEN teaching needs to schools based on each school’s educational profile and it also encompasses the English as an additional language support. In response to fluctuations in enrolments, the Department has supplemented this with temporary special education and additional language support.

Budget 2024 represents a significant step forward in our journey towards an inclusive, high-quality education system. Among other measures, the Minister, Deputy Foley, has allocated €5 million for additional educational welfare officer posts and supports for the alternative education assessment and registration service. This funding will enhance our capacity to support the most educationally disadvantaged children to ensure every child has access to quality education, regardless of their background.

Regarding Le Chéile National School, I am aware the Deputy's request is not specifically around education, but there are eight special education teachers in that school and nine SNAs as well.

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

I thank the Minister of State for her response, but she has not given any comfort to the children, parents or school staff who are listening to this. I know a few of them will be tuning in. The Minister of State referenced that three Departments are responsible for the services I am talking about, but the problem is they do not seem to be co-ordinating and Le Chéile National School has not got the resources it not just needs, but is entitled to.

This week the school were visited by members of the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, and the National Educational Psychological Service which can provide a specific additional need, but the school needs a multidisciplinary team. The school is in a challenging area with lots of complex issues, such as the scourge of addiction, be that to alcohol, drugs or gambling. It has already invested its own resources into private assessments for some of the kids, which it should not have to do. I wish to acknowledge and highlight the work the school has undertaken to date. It has identified four key areas that it needs to address over the next three years but it cannot deal with them alone. To be clear, this is not the absence of one support or another, but the absence of all additional support. Why does the Minister of State think the school has advised it has no speech and language support, no occupational therapy support, no physiotherapy support, no music or art therapy, no literacy or numeracy support, no access to counselling services and no assessment of need support? I feel sorry for the kids and I feel sorry for their teachers. How can a teacher be expected to teach kids with additional needs when those needs are not being catered for? How can that educator face that challenge every day without feeling despondent? Some are burnt out and feel abandoned. The school has a plan but it needs the Minister of State's support and that of the other Departments. It wants to see the needs of all their vulnerable and at-risk children fully assessed. It wants a multidisciplinary team working with those children. It wants a family support team created to support the families of these children. The school wants to give these children a chance in life. I want the Department of Education to step up and act. The least that can be done is to put a pilot scheme into the school to deal with the issues I have raised. The Minister of State needs to help these schools and help these kids. We need a response that will give some comfort to the teachers there.

Deputy Josepha Madigan

I thank the Deputy. I appreciate his concern for the school. As I mentioned, Le Chéile National School is in the DEIS urban band 1. It is one of Limerick's newest primary schools. It opened on 1 September 2015. It has an assigned psychologist and I understand from my conversations within the Department the NCSE has visited the school on a number of occasions. Both a SENO and an adviser visited in November 2023 as part of an SNA review and these visits were used as an opportunity to look at all the school's needs and make its staff aware of NCSE training. It received an increase in SNAs on foot of that. The adviser will be following up on her visit to organise staff training and to support with managing behaviour and trauma as well. The NCSE is also offering the school training focused on its autism, and emotional behaviour difficulty classes as well. The Deputy mentioned correctly that the team manager will be talking to the school this week regarding its training needs and it will be receiving a high level of support from the NCSE over the coming months. Again, I will speak to the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, about the physiotherapy, occupational therapy and speech and language supports. I will let her know the Deputy raised this in the Dáil and we will see what can be done on that. The Deputy also mentioned counselling, which falls within the remit of the Minister, Deputy Foley. There was €5 million put into a pilot programme in budget 2023 on counselling and mental health supports and I understand the DEIS schools are included in that pilot. There is also the Department's well-being policy, which was there before the pilot. The feedback and evaluation from the pilot is forthcoming.

Special Educational Needs

Deputy Matt Carthy

I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Madigan, for being here. A few weeks ago I hosted a disability forum and invited Sinn Féin's spokespeople on health and disabilities, Deputies Cullinane and Tully, to come and hear directly from parents, families and people with disabilities in County Monaghan. I invited a number of people I had worked with who had come to me requesting support in their battles with the HSE, CDNTs and the NCSE. I expected a good proportion of those I contacted to make an effort to attend, but I was not expecting the huge turnout on the night. Over 100 families were present. They came from every corner of the county and a few travelled from outside. They were from every walk of life and of every political persuasion. Some had organised babysitters and carers and others had taken time off work. It was clear this was a group of people who had stories that needed to be heard and they were looking for somebody - anybody - to listen. The stories we heard that evening were harrowing and in stark contrast to the narrative we often hear conveyed by the Government in this House. Parent after parent - mostly mothers, it must be said - told of their unrelenting battles to get the services their children need. The young mother who opened proceedings, Gráinne McElvaney, gave a very detailed and passionate address. Her words, almost exactly, were that parents of children with disabilities in County Monaghan are forced to fight every single day.

Two issues emerged as the dominant themes of that meeting. The first was the need for an overnight respite service for children with disabilities in County Monaghan. As the Minister of State will be aware, I have raised that matter with the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, on numerous occasions here and will continue to do so. The second issue is the one I bring to the present Minister of State, namely, the need for a special school in County Monaghan. Just as with respite care, Monaghan is a forgotten county. We do not have a special school; instead, children are forced to and expected to travel to the special school in Cavan, which has the highest standards and reputation. We heard absolutely harrowing stories of children with profound needs being forced to travel on a bus for obscene lengths of time in order to get to school. In at least one instance, a child will have this morning spent longer on the bus getting to school than I spent travelling here from Carrickmacross. Another child is at home today, as they have been all this school term, because transport to the special school in Cavan has not been put in place at all despite numerous appeals to the NCSE to get it sorted. Many other children from County Monaghan are not having their education needs met at all because the school in Cavan is beyond capacity.

Nobody who has appraised the situation objectively - nobody, that is, except the Government and the NCSE - is in any doubt that a special school in County Monaghan will be immediately filled. I have submitted numerous parliamentary questions to the Minister since 2022 urging the development of a special school in County Monaghan and in each case I have received a very lengthy response but no actual answer.

Typically, the exact words used are as follows:

In relation to provision in Monaghan, I want to reassure the Deputy that both my Department and the NCSE will continue to monitor and review the need for further new special schools.

That does not reassure me. It certainly does not reassure the families in County Monaghan who are crying out for a school that can cater for their children's needs. I hope the Minister of State can tell me today that she acknowledges the need for a special school in County Monaghan and that she will instruct the NCSE to deliver it as a matter of urgency.

Deputy Josepha Madigan

I thank the Deputy for the question. This is something that the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, and Senator Joe O'Reilly have brought to my attention as well. Deputy Carthy is correct when he says there is no special school at present in County Monaghan. He mentioned the special school in County Cavan, which I understand is full. However, there are several special schools in the environs of Monaghan. From my conversations with the CEO of the NCSE, John Kearney, I am assured that provision will be made for all children who require a special school place for September of this year. In regard to the following years, the forward planning we have put in place over recent years tells the NCSE where a child needs a place, whether that is a school place or a special class, not just in Monaghan but throughout the country.

We have made huge progress in the number of special schools we are creating. We now have 130 special schools in the country. Two special schools have been established for the current school year in Cork and Dublin, with further capacity being expanded in other special schools throughout the country. We have 3,000 special classes in total, of which 1,300 were sanctioned this year. We have also opened seven new special schools over the past four years. We are doing a huge amount of work in that regard. The budget we have is €2.7 billion. It is important we put that funding into making sure every child with an additional need has an appropriate placement. Some 97% of them are in mainstream classes. That is not to say there is not a need overall in Monaghan. The question of where special schools are needed, where the capacity is, where the demand is and where they should be located is consistently under the control of and under review by the NCSE. There is a progressive demand. I believe the NCSE would accept that. In 2023, some 0.55% of the population - less than 1% - required a special school place. The projected figure for 2025 is 0.64%. There is a definite upward trend. That is not just in County Monaghan. It is throughout the country. Some of that, although not all, is due to the exponential growth in autism, which is seen not just in Ireland but internationally.

The Deputy mentioned the word "reassure". I can reassure him that there will be existing provision and that we will meet the demand for 2024. I can tell him today that a special school is being considered by the NCSE for north Monaghan in terms of autism and complex needs. It is really important to me as Minister of State with responsibility for special education and inclusion that I liaise closely with the NCSE and that I know what is happening on the ground. We gave the NCSE an extra €113 million last year. It will be able to employ 160 new staff. We had SENOs, but not in sufficient numbers. They were completely overwhelmed and overloaded. There will now be more SENOs. They will be able to liaise directly with parents in a better way than before and, in turn, communicate those needs to the NCSE. In that way, they will be able to find the appropriate school placements that are being sought by parents

Deputy Matt Carthy

I know the people in the NCSE work incredibly hard and provide a huge service for a growing number of children. However, forward planning always leaves much to be desired. I have dealt with schools that have made approaches to the NCSE to offer their schools to accommodate special classes. The NCSE has said that there has to be a demand and that it takes a number of years. By the time the class is actually open, the demand far outstrips what is available. I deal with numerous families in County Monaghan who today, in March, do not know whether their child will have a place in a school next September. That is not tolerable and not fair.

In regard to a need for a special school, I appreciate the Minister of State's remarks. She diverged from the written response that was sent to us, which simply repeats the line about reassuring us that all options will be considered. If I heard correctly, she said that the option of a special school in Monaghan is under active consideration. Which is it? Is it under active consideration? Will the Minister of State give an assurance that it will be pursued actively so that we can ensure the children who need this service will get it? My fear is that there will be a big announcement that a special school is coming, but a lengthy period of time will pass before it is actually delivered. That is not what is required. The children who need this special school today need it. They do not need to be promised that another generation will have that facility. I appeal to the Minister of State. I reassure her that I will continue to raise this matter at every opportunity until we have a special school delivered in County Monaghan. I want the Government to work with all representatives in the constituency to ensure we deliver what children with profound disabilities in Monaghan need, what their parents are telling us they need and what everybody who has looked at this objectively says is needed: a special school for County Monaghan to build on the services that are provided by the Holy Family Special School in County Cavan.

Deputy Josepha Madigan

I thank the Deputy. I concur with much of what he says. Of course we want children to be placed appropriately. If there are children in County Monaghan who do not have a special school place, we need to find them a special school place. I can say, from my direct conversation with the NCSE, that there will be placements for those children in September 2024. I have been assured of that. In regard to the future, I mentioned the forward planning. There is active engagement on this. There is active consideration in relation to a special school. I mentioned the increase in the autism prevalence rate within the population. That indicates clearly that there is going to be a growing demand for the service. I speak to the NCSE in relation to this, as does the Department. The NCSE regional teams have weekly meetings to discuss this. As I said, we have opened seven special schools over the past four years. We are not shy about doing that. Where there is provision-----

Deputy Matt Carthy

That is no comfort to the families in Monaghan.

Deputy Josepha Madigan

It is under consideration. If I can just correct the record, I should have said that the NCSE was given €13 million for the 160 staff.

Schools Building Projects

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

One of the positive things we have seen under this Government has been investment in education. As the Minister of State outlined in response to the previous matter, we have seen new special schools. In my own area, there have been investments in new schools such as St. Aidan's secondary school and the Dominican secondary school. However, with education there is always a list of asks, and that is certainly the case in the Dublin 9 and Dublin 11 area. A number of schools have approached me about the current school building programme. I will outline some of those cases. There might be an opportunity for the Department to come back to me on the specifics.

The Holy Spirit Girls National School in Ballymun was one of the schools that opted early for the addition of an ASD class. We wanted more schools to do that. As we know, many schools in DEIS areas have numerous other challenges and are worried - "reluctant" might be the wrong word - about taking on an additional challenge when they already have so much on their plate. Holy Spirit Girls National School is not one of them. In 2021, the SENO and the school started to work together.

Additional accommodation is going in on that site and, as part of that project, a new canopy and play equipment were included. Unfortunately, out of the blue last November, these two elements of the project were removed. Cost was cited as the issue.

One might think that a canopy and play equipment are superfluous or nice-to-haves but they are a really important part of the overall plan in terms of managing the space and the flow of children between the new facility and the main school maximising the space that is available and giving children in the ASD class and children across the whole school use of the yard. The school is particularly disappointed. It welcomed when it was put on the framework because it felt that might speed it up but here we are at the very last minute and it is not complete.

One of the other two schools I referenced are Clonturk College where parents have campaigned for a long time. It is an Educate Together second-level school. Temporary buildings have gone in but we want to see a permanent school. The ETB and Educate Together are both involved and there are plans for another second-level school, so there will be two 1,000-pupil schools. This shows the need in the Santry area given the recent increase in population.

The third school is Gaelscoil Uí Earcáin, which is another school that adopted an ASD class. It is a really old school building. It is the school I went to when it was De La Salle Primary School. It has since been taken over by An Foras Pátrúnachta. Again, after a lot of campaigning, an entirely new school building will be given to that school but while we are doing that, it makes sense to put in place the supports we know are needed. Examples include a preparation room where hot school meals can be completed and a nurture room. Many of the trauma-informed reports talk about how nurture rooms play a really important role. Another example is space for home-school liaison and school completion staff within the building. When we are doing these large projects, we need to find a way to future-proof what is required. I appreciate I have thrown a lot at the Minister of State in regard to three issues. I would ask her to look at those details and come back to me.

Deputy Josepha Madigan

I thank the Deputy for raising this matter. The school building programme is not under my remit. It is under the remit of the Minister but I am happy to take this Topical Issue today. If I had known about the three schools, I might have had information relating to them. However, it is important to say that since 2020, the Department has invested in the region of €4.3 billion in our schools throughout the country involving the completion of over 800 school building projects, of which 16 are in the Dublin 9 and Dublin 11 area. Construction is currently under way at approximately 300 other projects, of which five are in Dublin 9 and Dublin 11 area. Of these 300 projects, 33 are new school buildings. These 300 projects currently at construction involve a total State investment of over €1.2 billion. There are also close to 90 projects currently at the tender stage. These projects include a further 28 new school buildings. All of these new school buildings are flagship projects in their area and transform the education infrastructure for those school communities.

This is a record level of investment in our schools and highlights the Government's very strong track record of delivery in providing additional capacity and modern facilities for our school communities. It is underpinned by a robust school planning approach that uses a geographical information system to anticipate school place demand. Information from a range of sources, including child benefit data, school enrolment data and information on residential development activity, is utilised for this purpose. Additionally, Project Ireland 2040 population and housing targets inform the Department's projections of school place requirements.

On the basis of previous assessment of demographic trends and accommodation requirements, significant additional school capacity is already been delivered in the areas mentioned by the Deputy, including a new school building for Grace Park Educate Together National School. Further significant capacity is planned or in train, most notably the planned development of City of Dublin ETB's Whitehall campus, which will provide a new 1,000-pupil building for Clonturk College. The Deputy mentioned about wanting a permanent school building for that school. There are developments regarding Ellenfield Community College and a new eight-classroom primary school for Gaelscoil Áine. There will be a new 350-pupil school building for Rosmini Community School that is at construction and a new 500-pupil school building for Scoil Chaitríona is at stage 1 - preliminary design. The Deputy mentioned Gaelscoil Uí Earcáin. There is a project there to extend that to 16 classrooms that is also at stage 1. There is also a project to provide a new 20-classroom special school for Scoil Chiaráin, which is at stage 2b - detailed design.

Obviously, the Department will continue to keep the short-, medium- and long-term requirements for school places in Dublin 9 and 11 under ongoing review, including through the local authority in respect of its review of development and local area plans. I note that the Deputy is a past pupil of De La Salle Primary School, which is now Gaelscoil Uí Earcáin, which has an ASD class. He spoke about looking for a preparation room and a nurture room. He also mentioned Holy Spirit Girls National School in Ballymun, which also has an ASD unit. I commend both of those schools on that. The Deputy is looking for a canopy and play equipment and use of the yard, so they are things I can bring to the attention of the Minister and the planning and building unit to see if they can do something for the Deputy.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I would very much appreciate that. I know the planning and building unit is a bit of a black box. I think all TDs would love to have more access to the decisions that are made there. If the Minister of State could pass on those concerns, I hope we could get a positive response.

It is really important the Minister of State acknowledges what has happened in our area in recent years, namely, the agreement of schools to open additional ASD classes. Thankfully, the Minister of State has not had to use the new special powers the Government has put in place but I want to acknowledge that in DEIS areas, schools have significant levels of complex needs and I would challenge other areas that perhaps have less on their plate and more advantages to follow the lead.

After we have tried to persuade principals to open an ASD class and they have come on board, they have told me that there is more we need to do in terms of therapies, treatments and supports. The HSE needs to work harder with the Department in terms of supporting those schools that open ASD classes. Some of these facilities are fantastic. The Minister and I visited Coláiste Eoin, which is a second-level school, and it was fantastic as are many others such as Virgin Mary Girls' National School in Ballymun, where we opened that room, but we need the HSE to support them.

All of this activity is at primary school level and all of those children are going to need a second-level place or some second-level support. Some of that might be special schools but, hopefully, some of it will be ASD classes in second-level schools. The current model of limiting the number of ASD classes in a school may not work as well at second level because the number of ASD classes we have opened at primary level will not physically fit into the number of schools we have. I know the Minister of State is working on this matter but my area is already starting to see the creaking demand for second-level places when we have just about started to address primary level.

Deputy Josepha Madigan

Those are important points. As I said, the planning and building unit is under the remit of the Minister but I will bring it to its attention. I am glad I did not have to use the section 37a mechanism and that, in the main, schools have been very welcoming in terms of opening ASD classes and embracing that difference for children with additional needs on which I commend them.

Therapies and supports are a matter for the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, but I will speak to her about that.

There are 41,500 staff wholly and exclusively dedicated to special education, whether they are special needs assistants, SNAs, or special education teachers. There should be supports in place for schools. They can obviously get an exceptional review if they feel they do not have those supports and the Deputy can bring to my attention any schools that feel they are not supported because they need to be. The key drivers of capital investment in the school sector include demographic growth, particularly at post-primary level, which the Deputy mentioned. That is where forward planning and the geographical information system come into play. The increased demand for special education provision is always being looked at and monitored on a daily basis, as is the alignment of school place provision with housing developments. Climate action objectives, including deep energy retrofits, are also taken into consideration. All of those factors are extremely important.

Cuireadh an Dáil ar fionraí ar 9.51 a.m. agus cuireadh tús leis arís ar 9.59 a.m.

Sitting suspended at 9.51 a.m. and resumed at 9.59 a.m.