COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS díospóireacht

An Cathaoirleach

Apologies have been received from Deputy Imelda Munster. I remind everyone to switch off their mobile phones or place them in silent mode. On behalf of the committee, I welcome the two newly appointed members, Deputy Ciarán Cannon, who will perhaps arrive later in the morning, and Deputy Damien English. These are two promotions within Fine Gael.

Before we start, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practices of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege. This means that witnesses have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything that they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure that it is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with such a direction.

Members and witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are also reminded of the provisions of Standing Order 218 that the committee shall refrain from enquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government or the merits of the objectives of such policies.

The Comptroller and Auditor General, Seamus McCarthy, is a permanent witness and is accompanied by Ms Paula O'Connor, deputy director at the office of the Comptroller and Auditor General.

This morning we will be engaging with officials from the Department of Education to examine appropriation accounts for 2022, specifically Vote 26 - Education. From the Department, we are joined by: Ms Bernie McNally in her first appearance before the committee as Secretary General; Mr. Hubert Loftus, assistant secretary general; Ms Aoife Conduit, assistant secretary general; Ms Martina Mannion, assistant secretary general; Mr. Dalton Tatton, assistant secretary general, Mr. Gavan O'Leary, assistant secretary general, and Mr. Tom Whelan, principal officer.

We are also joined by the following officials from the relevant Vote section of the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform: Ms Georgina Hughes-Elders, principal officer, and Ms Sibeal Archer, assistant principal officer. All of the witnesses are very welcome. To begin, I call on the Comptroller and Auditor General to make his opening statement.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Go raibh maith agat a Chathaoirligh. The appropriation account for Vote 26 Education records gross expenditure of just under €10.2 billion in 2022. This represented almost a 10% increase in spending year on year. The largest element of spending in 2022 was for the pay and pensions of current and former teachers and other school staff, amounting to €7.8 billion. Payments related to the provision of school buildings and extensions and other educational infrastructure totalled €1.1 billion in 2022. This included €64 million in payments relating to public private partnership provision of schools. Grants payable to primary and post-primary schools, education and training boards and other educational organisations and institutes amounted to more than €767 million in 2022. Expenditure on school transport totalled just under €339 million. The Department’s administration costs were slightly more than €120 million in 2022.

On the receipts side, appropriations-in-aid amounted to €409 million in 2022. The majority of these receipts are pension-related contributions deducted from the salaries of current education sector employees.

The net expenditure outturn for 2022 was €9.767 billion, leaving a surplus to be surrendered from Vote 26 of just under €49 million. I issued a clear audit opinion for the appropriation account for 2022. I also drew attention to the disclosure made by the Accounting Officer in the statement on internal financial control in respect of material instances of non-compliance with procurement rules that occurred in 2022.

An Cathaoirleach

Thank you. As set out in the invitation, Ms McNally has five minutes for her opening statement.

Ms Bernie McNally

I thank the Chair and committee members for the invitation to discuss our appropriation account and some particular topics the committee has chosen.

Although the Chair introduced the officials, I will give their names again and their areas of responsibility in order that members will be clear on that. At assistant secretary general level, Mr. Hubert Loftus is head of the planning and building unit. Ms Martina Mannion is head of the special education and National Educational Psychological Service, NEPS, division. Mr. Dalton Tattan covers curriculum, assessment and teacher professional learning. Ms Aoife Conduit covers school transport and redress. Mr. Gavan O’Leary is from our corporate services and finance unit. At principal officer level, Mr. Tom Whelan is head of the finance unit.

We provided briefing material in advance. I hope this has been of some assistance. As the committee is aware, the Department of Education is responsible for funding, policy development and oversight to support the provision of education in schools. The Department’s net expenditure in 2022 was €9.77 billion. Net pay and superannuation accounted for around 77% of the Department’s overall budget in 2022. This provided for approximately 143,000 teachers, special needs assistants and other staff. Other expenditure included grants to schools, including capitation payments; costs associated with teacher education; the provision of school transport; and a significant capital building programme. The capital programme comprised approximately €1.1 billion, representing 11% of the gross expenditure of the Department. The overall expenditure for the year also included costs arising due to Covid-19, the war in Ukraine and cost-of-living increases in schools.

Due to pressure on expenditure in 2022, it was necessary to seek a gross Supplementary Estimate of €925 million. Of this, €200 million was for retrospective public sector pay deals agreed during 2022 as part of the extension of the Building Momentum pay deal. A further €400 million was approved for costs relating to Covid-19 support, the war in Ukraine and cost-of-living supports. The statement of internal financial control that forms part of the appropriation account provides details regarding the control systems in place. It also notes details of instances of non-compliance with public procurement rules. The Department fulfils a significant operational role nationally. For example, it is responsible for the largest payroll in the country. Some instances of non-compliant procurement arose for reasons such as urgency, the need for business continuity and initial assessments made that certain services only had a sole supplier. The Department is actively engaged with the procurement reform programme and is taking the opportunity to use centralised contracts and frameworks wherever possible. The Department has also increased its staffing resource in relation to procurement guidance and monitoring to improve compliance.

The committee has been provided with briefing on the capital programme of the Department. The demographic trends in relation to the number of children enrolling in schools and expected to enrol are changing. Many school planning areas continue to see growth in demand. The Department is taking every opportunity to continually improve and strengthen its forward planning through better data gathering, sharing and analytics and collaboration with other agencies and sectors. Delivery of the school building programme is a priority for the Department. We have strong track record of delivery, with all available investment being used annually.

As well as significant national demographic trends, the Department is conscious of significant regional and local variations in demographics, which have implications for demand for school places in a given area. Migration patterns can add to this complexity. The successful enrolment of more than 18,200 pupils from Ukraine was a significant feature across the sector in 2022 and right up to date. This represents an enrolment rate of approximately 94% of the Ukrainian school-age children who have come to Ireland, one of the highest enrolment rates across Europe.

More than 163,500 children travel on school transport services every week. This number covers in excess of 136,000 pupils on mainstream services, more than 20,000 pupils on the special educational scheme and 7,600 pupils from Ukraine. As the committee knows, the service is managed by Bus Éireann on behalf of the Department. It cost approximately €340 million in 2022. As members will be aware, the Minister recently published a report entitled School Transport Scheme 2030. This was the largest review of school transport since its establishment in the 1960s. The report recommends the expansion of access to the scheme, with a view to providing transport services to an additional 100,000 pupils by 2030.

Over €2.7 billion of the Department’s budget is invested in special educational needs. A significant amount has been achieved in recent years. For example, we currently have more than 2900 special classes across the country, which is a sixfold increase from 514 in 2011. By the end of this year, an additional 11 special schools will have been introduced since 2020. However, there is still a significant amount to be done and the Department is working intensively to ensure that all children with special educational needs can access high-quality and inclusive education in their locality.

The committee has listed other areas of interest it would like addressed at this meeting and we have included updated information on each in the briefing provided to it in advance. My colleagues and I will be happy to take any further questions on these matters. I thank the Cathaoirleach and members of the committee.

Deputy John Brady

I thank the delegation for coming to discuss an important issue which is causing communities throughout the State anxiety, stress, concern and fear as regards the handling of education. There appears to be a poor forward planning process in place. That is certainly evident in my constituency of Wicklow. How would the witnesses sum up the Department's current approach to forward planning, school places and the progression of new school buildings?

Ms Bernie McNally

I thank Deputy Brady for his question. I absolutely acknowledge there are families around the country who have concerns. Deputy Brady is from one of the constituencies in which there has been a problem. The country is divided up into 314 school planning areas and the data shows us that the planning has absolutely worked. Of those, there are typically about ten school planning areas every year in which there are problems.

We have nearly 1 million children and young people in schools, of whom the vast majority get a place without a problem. In up to ten school planning areas, however, there can occasionally be a problem, generally for reasons of very accelerated population growth. Part of the problem is not actually that there are not enough places, full stop; it is often just duplication. A significant contributor to it is that parents are applying to a number of different schools. For example, in one area recently, we found that when we eliminated the duplication, there were immediately 50% fewer places than we needed.

There is significant planning. The Deputy is advocating on behalf of his constituents and others across the country. I can absolutely assure that we will provide a school place for every child, be that a child who is attending a mainstream school with full ability or someone who has special educational needs. We will provide a place for them.

Deputy John Brady

Ms McNally said that planning has worked, but it has not. It has failed. Forward planning has fundamentally failed. Wicklow is one example of that but there are many other examples across the State. I will quickly read a letter I got from a pupil in Wicklow only this Monday. It is very brief and says:

Hello, my name is [I am not going to give his name, for obvious reasons] and I go to St. Patrick's National School. I really love the school that I am in currently and I have made loads of friends since moving school. This year, I have to move school again since I am going to secondary school. The problem is that I do not have a place in a school yet. Every one of my friends do. I am the only one from both sixth classes in my school that does not have a place. This makes me feel a bit left out. I really hope that, in the future, I get a place in a secondary school close to home, like St. David's School or Temple Carrig School for example, and not one that is far away in Kilcoole. I hope that soon I will have a place in a secondary school and I am able to tell my friends and not have to worry about it anymore.

That is from a sixth class pupil and it is very evident as to how he, and many other pupils right across the State, not just in Greystones, have been failed. The system is not working. He is on a list. He is 78th on a list for St. David's School and 71st for Temple Carrig School.

Last week, the Taoiseach said he had solved the issue and that every child in that area now has a school place. This letter arrived on Monday. This pupil is one of at least 12 pupils in that area who are still without a school place. What does Ms McNally say to him, his parents and other parents and pupils in a similar situation who do not have a school place in Greystones and other places across the State? Does Ms she stand over her remark that the planning process in the Department is working?

Ms Bernie McNally

The planning system is working, overall. As I mentioned, for 314 school planning areas, there are, typically, less than ten areas where there are problems. Most children and young people across the country get a school place. They may not always get their first place or first preference, but they will get a school in their locality. I am not saying that we have it perfect; absolutely not.

I genuinely empathise with that young person. I have teenagers of my own and I know how important it is for them to have advanced notice and to know where they are going. Preferably, they want to go somewhere where there are some of their peers. In Deputy Brady's particular area, we have established extra places. While I know the letter mentioned a different school, there is an extra class in Greystones Community College. We are working really hard. Ideally, we would like to have every single young person sorted out much earlier in the year, but in the coming weeks, we believe we will have sorted out children-----

Deputy John Brady

This is an annual occurrence. It is not a one-off occurrence in the Greystones area. Unfortunately, Ms McNally's words ring hollow to this pupil and his family and to the other families who are in a similar situation to the parents and pupils of last year, the year before that and so on. There is a cyclical failure by the Department to deal with this.

Ms McNally said that forward planning is working. We know that in Greystones, for example, the population target has already exceeded the target for 2030. Six years prior to achieving the population target, planning applications are now being refused by the local authority because the 2030 target has been exceeded. What kind of interaction is there with Wicklow County Council and other local authorities on that forward planning piece? There seems to be a real failure to say that the school places are not available and that the brakes need to be applied. While houses are needed, we also need the critical infrastructure such as school places. We have a problem here and we are not in a position to provide those school places. What kind of interaction is happening with local authorities such as Wicklow County Council?

Ms Bernie McNally

I have to respectfully disagree with Deputy Brady that the whole system is a failure. As I said, there are nearly 1 million children and young people in the system at any one time. Every year, between 120,000 and 130,000 children come in at junior infants or first year and while I do not want to mislead parents, the vast majority of those get a school place because we are planning from years out. Deputy Brady identified himself that, in that particular area, even the local authority did not see the volume of expansion coming. It came quicker and was not foretold. We work really close-----

Deputy John Brady

The local authority did see it. There is a planning process there. There are population targets laid down. It saw it. There was a real failure here to plan properly, both by the Department and the local authority. There was no joined-up thinking. Education is one area but there are other areas which have failed here in terms of amenities. Pupils should have a basic and fundamental right to a school place and they have been failed.

Ms Bernie McNally

I could ask my colleague Mr. Loftus to come in later, if the committee has time, and he will outline the massive growth in the number of places, the number of schools in Wicklow that have seen expansion, the number of new schools at primary and post-primary and the extra places that are there. A lot is being done. The Deputy asked about local authorities, and we work very closely with the local authorities to plan. We contribute to development plans-----

Deputy John Brady

They may be small numbers but in Wicklow, it cost €6 million in one year to provide temporary accommodation by renting land, renting prefabs and so on. That is not value for money, in my book. It is a failure by the Department to forward-plan to provide education for pupils who, as a right, should have it in appropriate settings.

I will give Ms McNally an example. One of my daughters started primary school in a prefab that was totally unfit for purpose. She also attended secondary school in a prefab. She went to college in Maynooth and was educated in a prefab there too. Throughout her education, she was educated in prefabs. She is now a primary school teacher, so after 18 years of education, it was only when she became a primary school teacher that she set foot in a purpose-built classroom. That is a real failure, and there are pupils like her throughout the State who have been systematically failed by the State in the provision of education but also the provision of subject options in secondary school. There is a real failure here by the Department. There is no efficiency whatsoever and there is a real failure of forward planning.

Ms Bernie McNally

If I could come in on that, the Deputy mentioned the word "failure" a lot and I have to counter that a little. I absolutely accept there are problems in many areas, but first and foremost, the Deputy opened this discussion by talking about us needing places. We do everything we can to ensure every child gets a place, and we can give him numbers on that. Sometimes, however, in a small number of cases relative to the 1 million children who are in the system, we have to spend money on rental, but that can be justified. We are doing everything we can to minimise it, but our first priority is to make sure children and young people have a school place, and that is what we do.

Second, the Deputy mentioned failing children and young people. The facts are the quality of the education system in Ireland is the envy of the world and we have hard data that shows we do provide high-quality education.

Deputy John Brady

To finish, although I might come back in on this, when the Ombudsman for Children has stated there is an unacceptable level of stress, particularly for children with special needs, and when there is a figure of more than €320 million having been spent last year on the provision of temporary and modular accommodation, that speaks volumes about the failure of the Department and the Minister to forward-plan and put in place appropriate education for our children.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Good morning to everybody. I want to add to the questions on modular accommodation. A number of schools are waiting. Mr. Loftus might brief me on when they will be informed. Some of them are accommodating classes in their general-purpose areas and maybe even in school halls. Will that be remedied for the coming school year?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Absolutely. We have a very strong roll-out of projects, both mainstream-traditional and modular, and we are engaging with a lot of schools on that . One of the benefits of modular accommodation is that we have a framework in place that assists with procurement delivery. To add in response to Deputy Brady's point, modular accommodation is a very strong, robust, permanent solution. We have had very positive feedback on the quality of it, and we see it as an important delivery mechanism-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

I apologise for interrupting but my clock is ticking. I accept that. I might need a further meeting on certain projects, rather than holding up the committee-----

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Yes, I am happy to talk directly to the Deputy, being conscious of time.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I know that the Department worked very hard over the summer last year and sometimes the summer is when it engages with the principal or the people concerned, but it is about being sure there will not be a continuation of the use of prefab cabins or the school hall as opposed to a classroom setting.

Turning to Ms Conduit, in March of this year, representation was made by a party colleague of the Minister to the Department of Education with regard to school transport, and a third bus was laid onto the route from Callan, County Kilkenny, to Kilkenny city. How did that come about?

Ms Aoife Conduit

As the Deputy is aware, a large number of children use school transport every year. Some 70% of those are eligible and qualify under the scheme-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

In March of this year, a third bus was laid on. Why was it laid on in March and not in September?

Ms Aoife Conduit

To put it in context-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

Ms Bernie McNally

This is an issue for working parents.

An Cathaoirleach

We have a new member of the committee, Deputy Cannon. He is very welcome. He can take the next slot if he is ready to do so, or he can wait a little while.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

I am more than happy to take the slot now.

An Cathaoirleach

You may go ahead. It is the first Fine Gael slot.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

I thank the Cathaoirleach and I thank the administrative support team behind the Committee of Public Accounts for its very helpful induction over the last few days. I am delighted and honoured to be a member of a committee that does exceptionally valuable work.

I want to follow on from the most recent discussion about school transport. Over the last couple of years, I have received numerous representations from schools principals and people who are involved in the school transport industry in my own constituency of Galway East, on the issue of the driving limit for the over-70s, if we want to describe it as that. My initial reaction is very similar to that of Deputy Verona Murphy in that it seems logical to extend the opportunity for people to drive school buses beyond the age of 70.

As one driver put it to me, he can drive schoolchildren in a 50-seater bus to a hurling match at 72 years of age but he cannot drive them to school at 72 years of age, and we must bear that in mind. I took the time, as I always do, to conduct a lot of research on this matter. I spoke to a lot of people in the industry and looked at the international research not alone around school bus driving but also around the piloting of aircraft. All of the research would seem to indicate that a person enters into an age of high risk post the age of 70 from the perspectives of a driver and a pilot, where a person is personally responsible for the lives and the safety of a number of other human beings. My initial reaction was the wrong one. Now, having looked at the research, I firmly support Bus Éireann and, indeed, the Department in how they approach this issue.

I urge anyone who is intent on making a well-informed decision on this policy matter to look at the conclusive research that there are significant risks post the age of 70 applying to people who are responsible for the lives of others. As I said, driving is an exceptionally important role. As a parent, one hands over responsibility for one's child's safety to one individual. If the international research shows that individuals run a risk - perhaps a small one - of not being capable or-----

Deputy John Brady

Fine Gael's policy is anyone over 70 years should not drive any bus. That is chaos.

An Cathaoirleach

Sorry, I ask members to respect the Chair. One person has the floor. Members were not interrupted when they spoke. We must allow Deputy Cannon to speak as he is a new Deputy on the committee. Please continue, Deputy Cannon.

We have never had another member interject within someone's time. That does not happen.

An Cathaoirleach

I do not want anybody interjecting. Deputy Cannon has the floor. Deputy Cannon, without interruption.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

Go raibh maith agat and I encourage others to read the research.

Yes, the school transport system is under incredible pressure. It always has been and always will be. In terms of being able to accommodate the maximum number of children, and at a time when we are focusing on all of the climate change and climate action requirements and responsibilities that we have, the system is going to become an ever more important element of the Department's policy and, indeed, the Government's policy in general.

The town concessions that were made in allowing for children attending their second nearest school at post-primary level to access school transport was an exceptionally positive development. Is it the intention of the Department that that would be bedded in permanently in school transport provision in the future? Has analysis been done at to how it might apply at primary level? There will be significant additional costs attached but I know from being a representative of a small rural community, and living in a small rural parish, that there are times when children living within that parish can access school transport going to schools outside of the parish but because of the geography of the parish, they are not entitled to transport within their own parish. That situation can at times dissolve or break down that sense of community and togetherness of rural parishes and, indeed, perhaps urban parishes. I know that this aspect causes a lot of concern at times for both the principals of those schools and the parents involved. Are there plans to permanently bed in the town concessions into the post-primary system and, second, to extend it to the primary system?

Ms Bernie McNally

I thank the Deputy for his question. My colleague, Ms Conduit, will comment in a moment. The school transport review 2030, which the Minister has just published, proposes to recommend to Government that we continue to invest in the school transport scheme, so that by 2030 there will be another 100,000 children and young people on it. That deals with the question that has been asked. The review would give children and the young people's families access to other schools that they might want to attend. The limitations of the nearest school or next nearest school would have moved on and would reflect preferences, and we talked about preferences earlier. It would extend the eligibility to various schools and the distance criteria would be significantly reduced as well.

Ms Martina Mannion

In addition to the new special classes the Deputy talked about in the area, there will be 30 new special classes across Dublin for September 2024. That is in addition to the 71 new special classes we put in last year. Some 23 of those special classes were at post-primary level across Dublin.

The Deputy mentioned forward planning. The special education unit, the planning and building unit and the NCSE spent an extensive amount of time on forward planning. We took a strategic look at where children at post-primary were coming from. In looking at that, we found that approximately one third were coming from special classes at primary, one third were coming from mainstream primary and one third were coming from within the post-primary system. The other thing we looked at with the NCSE was not just school planning area by county and then bringing it up to the national level. The bulk of children going into special classes are eight or nine years of age. We need to continue massively delivering special classes at primary level. The bulk of children coming into special classes at post-primary will be coming in the next number of years. Mr. Loftus and I work intensively every week to ensure we have that forward planning place available, so we have had more than 100%-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

To be fair to the Chair, I think I am way over time. Am I correct in saying a figure of 25% of the total education budget is now being spent on special education?

Ms Martina Mannion

It is 26% of the budget, which is €2.7 billion.

It is an important point to make.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I have a number of questions I want to ask, and I have little time. Will Mr. Loftus provide the committee with a note of situations where security is paid for, separate from it being included in the contract? We can look at that then.

The Department said it plans years out. County Kildare is growing rapidly and gained 25,000 people between the two most recent censuses. We have obviously had some engagement about the difficulty people are having securing school places, and we have been given an assurance that they will all get a school place this year. I am sure the witnesses will reiterate that, and I hope they will. To use it as an example, children may well get a school place, but they may not be told until June or July where they will be going to school. The applications for the school transport system have already closed.

Where students do not get a place, how does the Department provide for their school transport?

The briefing material contained a section on the climate. Does the Department consider climate at all in terms of the provision of places? I ask because where students are allocated a place it will not be located close to them. I will use the example of children travelling from Enfield to attend a school in Maynooth but there are children who cannot get into that school in Maynooth because there is a sibling policy. Children or young people cannot get into their closest school due to the criss-crossing of locations, just to provide school places. One can see the chaos the policy causes outside schools. It is not just the traffic chaos the policy causes. The policy means one parent must leave his or her job because his or her child must be brought to school due being concessionary, which means that child or young person is not guaranteed a place on a school bus. Where does that policy come in at all?

Every application means there is a new school or extension needed. Please tell us more about that priority.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

That priority ultimately pans down into the additionality that needs to be provided in particular areas to add to capacity. The Deputy referenced the Temple Carrig School and it is in early design. St. David's college in the same town is a recently completed project. Greystones Community College is a huge 1,000 pupil flagship project. A letter of intent has been issued and a letter of acceptance is to issue shortly. Kilcoole, which is the neighbouring school area, has a project in late design. We are adding huge capacity when it comes to forward planning.

To give a sense of the scale of what we are delivering, out at construction currently, there is €1.2 billion worth of projects. There is 350,000 sq. m. of accommodation being provided in terms of construction recently completely and another 200,000 sq. m. being added. That relates to the equivalent of nearly 7,000 primary classrooms and if one were to place them back to back then it is nearly the equivalent of 7 km of accommodation. That is huge delivery, strong delivery and very strong forward planning.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

We have a growing population so the Department must be ahead of things.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Yes but it is an important point in terms of an evidence base of real progress, real delivery and making a real difference to school communities right around the country.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I thank our guests for their presentations and briefing documents. I do not intend to be especially negative but as we are discussing this business of forward planning, essentially what we are hearing is there is nothing to see here and move on. All of us know the situation from different representations we have received. By way of example, one should never talk about policy based on a specific instance. A family moved to my constituency and they needed a school place for one child in third class. I could not find them one third class place all across east Waterford. In Tramore, a brand new school was built and an extension was added a year later. Therefore, people cannot convince me forward planning is happening when the Department needed to extend a brand new school. Similarly, I have been told there are no demographic pressures within Tramore to create new school places, yet I can see the houses, in their hundreds, going up. The analysis being done does not look at houses that will be completed in the very near future. That does not satisfy forward planning, as far as I am concerned.

Ms McNally mentioned there are 314 school planning areas and ten of them have been identified as being under pressure. Will she confirm whether the Department has committed to the ten places? Ms McNally probably has the information at her fingertips.

Ms Bernie McNally

We can come back to that, yes.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

It is a real issue. I want to ask about the modelling the Department uses in respect of the provision of special classrooms. We are seeing a lot of response to demand. If there is a demand for special classrooms, then the Department may or may not provide them. Again, I could talk about Tramore but I will not at this point. We have discussed this issue but I am not sure whether that was done by the Joint Committee on Autism or the Joint Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science. What modelling does the Department use to forward plan? I ask because need is predictable. It should not be a case that the Department must respond to demand because parents rocked up. Instead, we should be able to look at population and plan for that.

Ms Bernie McNally

I will go back to where the Deputy started, saying that maybe there is a suggestion from the Department that we address the needs of every single child and that there is nothing to see here. We acknowledge there are problems and I do not want to suggest otherwise. In terms of systemic failure, it is my responsibility to point out that for the vast majority of children-----

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

That is not the language I used or would use. I do not think there is systemic failure. I think the vast majority of children in our school system are well provided for and I reiterate I did not use that language.

Ms Bernie McNally

As regards the third class child the Deputy spoke about, that is a terrible situation. I am not sure if the family has been in contact with the educational welfare service but that is a service that works with children who do not have a place and finds them a place. In addition to contacting the people around this table, there is the educational welfare service in Tusla, which is a service that is under the remit of the Department. It is the statutory role of the service to help a child to get a place.

In terms of the modelling for special education and special classes, we work proactively and do not just respond to children who arrive at the door. Earlier I gave an example of post-primary schools. We wrote to them in last October 12 months to say we are planning and suggested they need to plan with us for four special classes in every post-primary school. The Department has a geographical information system in its planning and building unit, which is where we look at census data, child benefit data and whatever. We map the location of special schools and special classes so we work proctively.

To go back to some of the climate and travel issues we were talking about earlier, we are trying to ensure that we will have access locally all over the country. There is a huge amount to be done. Prevalence rates are rising. There is no definitive rate around prevalence in the Department of Health or in other Departments but we are forward planning for more than has been in the statistics to date.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

There are international examples of prevalence rates, particularly with autism, and we have no reason to think our population is different.

I was not going to go there but as Ms McNally raised the issue of climate, I will refer to an issue that I raised with the Department at the education committee when we were discussing the public sector performance report. What the industry calls scope three emissions are not factored in by the Department in its siting of schools. I raised this previously. Ms McNally mentioned that the Department works in association with local authorities but we are not planning our new schools as active transport nodes. We discussed this in 2023. It is not the case that we site a new school and build an active travel network around it. We do a lot of retrofitting, which is much more difficult and we often end up with bad quality transport infrastructure. What that also means is that we have an ingrained transport practice. Again, I go back to the example of Tramore. We built a massive secondary school with one road in and one road out. It is the only place in Tramore where one will hit traffic and it is absolutely insane. Poor quality active travel infrastructure was put there. When one considers the enormous investment of the State when we are building new schools, the fact that we are not proactively, in any meaningful way, engaging with local authorities to establish them as active travel nodes is concerning. I am also concerned by the fact that the Department does not consider scope one emissions. When we talk about climate, we talk about building NZEB schools which is fine but we are not considering the emissions arising from travelling to and from school.

I want to come back to the Comptroller and Auditor General's special report on school transport from 2017 and the section on operational meetings. There was a considerable deficit identified there. Do we have a comprehensive service-level agreement in place now with Bus Éireann, which was not there previously? In those operational meetings, we did not have things as basic as terms of reference for the meetings. We did not have advance circulation of management reports. There was no evidence that discussions were taking place in relation to budgets and the actual cost of the school transport scheme. The finance reports were in bullet form with little detail. Has there been significant reform of these operational meetings in response to the Comptroller and Auditor General's report?

Ms Bernie McNally

I thank the Deputy for asking that question. We would say that there has been full implementation of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report. In fact, we have gone even further. For example, we introduced the service-level agreement that was recommended but we have since replaced that with an even stronger governance structure of a performance-delivery agreement and an oversight arrangement. There are very strong governance arrangements in place now. We actually increased the resources in that unit so that we could improve the operations on the governance side while also looking at reform, implementing the review and so on. There are monthly meetings with detailed minutes for them now. Detailed financial and operational data is provided by Bus Éireann. We got an external person to help us to develop a template for what exactly we should be looking at in the financial returns and the process now is fairly forensic. We have an accountant working on the team who looks at these on a monthly basis. We believe that everything is being implemented.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

If I get a second opportunity to ask questions, I will raise a range of different subjects but I have one final question on school transport for now. The Department's own briefing note refers to pilot projects for 2024 and 2025. I would like a little bit more meat on the bones on that, including the possibility of integrating with public transport services and so on. The other point I would make is that we are in May 2024 and we are talking about this being rolled out in September. We are talking about communicating with parents, telling them how they should apply and informing them of what the changes will mean. That seems to me to be a very short time period if we are actually going to meaningfully implement pilot projects. Is there something our guests can tell us about the locations? Have we a mix of urban and rural locations? What is the population catchment size that we are looking at in these instances? When will we get to view, in detail, what these pilot projects are going to look like?

Ms Bernie McNally

Everything the Deputy said is true. We had to open the scheme and see what the application levels were around the country and get a flavour of that. We needed that information before doing this. There will be two pilot schemes. Work on them is advanced. Clearly, we are not working in isolation. We are working with Bus Éireann, the National Transport Authority, and the Department of Transport. I cannot give the Deputy any information on them at the moment. I respect what he is saying about families needing notice but the Minister will be announcing details of these projects shortly and we will, obviously, be reaching out to the families who may wish to opt in and take part in these pilots. Unfortunately, I cannot give the Deputy the details today.

An Cathaoirleach

We are going to take a break for ten minutes.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I welcome the witnesses. I thank them for the briefing documentation they supplied.

A number of issues and points have already been raised and made by my committee colleagues, especially around school transport. One particular issue crosses with special needs education. There is an ongoing issue with transportation to St. Augustine's School in Blackrock. A combination of school buses and taxis is being used. However, as the witnesses will appreciate, when the service is not reliable and there is a change to parents' routine it has huge ramifications for a family. Will the Department look at that? I know it is aware of the issue, but it is ongoing. I will leave that point there.

On special education and the summer programme, I note from the information the Department provided that 51,000 children availed of the summer programme, which is an increase of 111%. A lot of changes have been made to that programme. However, there are still challenges with offering it in some schools. What are the Department's plans for the summer ahead to try to incentivise more schools to participate in this much-needed programme that has been a great success but is not available to all families?

Ms Bernie McNally

I will answer the question on the summer programme. We will look at the specific school transport issue raised and come back to the Deputy. We have significantly reduced the number of issues with special education transport.

The summer programme is important for children, young people and their families. We have put a huge amount of time and investment into it. We have seen radical increases in the number of children accessing it in the past few years. We focused on getting more schools as we would like to see every special school offering it as well as lots of mainstream schools. We have invested significantly to get more schools involved, have had some success and continue to work on it. We have put in a lot of improvements over the years. We have a national co-ordinator now who is working with them. We have added leadership roles in the schools so that the principal does not always have to do all the work. We pay organisers and managers to do it. We also looked at what is the best way to get more staff. Parents want their children to go to the special school they go to for the rest of year. Where possible, they want the children to be with the staff who have been with them for the rest of the year. We appreciate that teachers and SNAs need a break in the summer so we have looked to see how we can incentivise more of the local staff to be part of the summer programme. This year, we changed the funding a little to be able to give staff their personal rate of pay, not the first increment, in order that they get what they are paid for the rest of the year. We have taken a number of initiatives to encourage and support the programme. Will my colleague Ms Mannion add to that?

Ms Martina Mannion

It has been a huge success. We had 13,000 children participate in 2019. That number increased to 50,000 in 2023. The number of schools participating reached 1,400 last year, which is up 12%. The registration portal for schools for the 2024 summer programme is closing tomorrow. We had 1,441 schools last year. I am pleased to say that 1,696 schools have registered already this year. There are a few new additional things which will help significantly. We have a special-school placement from the third week of May to the end of the programme whereby schools can take two graduate teachers and final year professional master of education, PME, students. That will bolster the special school capacity for the people running the summer programme. We hope those teachers and staff will get a feel for working in a special school environment and that the special schools will be able to retain them after the summer. We have a small but significant partnership between Munster Technological University and special schools in Kerry, whereby the special school staff will be supported by the university staff to develop programmes and we are trying to extend that.

The personal rates of pay Ms McNally mentioned have been instrumental in getting the number of schools up, as have the two additional roles. The organiser is the person who works on the summer programme before it happens and the manager is the person working on the summer programme, but not the teacher, who supports it while it is happening.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I thank Ms McNally and Ms Mannion for the comprehensive update. I hope the measures outlined will further increase the provision of the summer programme.

Deputy James O'Connor

I echo what Deputy Devlin was saying on home-school liaison. Some schools that were lucky enough to be included in the DEIS bands following the recent review, but others were very disappointed. There is a particular social need in Youghal in County Cork and what happened with DEIS - to which I will return in a moment - was rather perplexing. Beyond DEIS allocation, that provision of a home-school liaison service to schools is critical in communities with that acute need. I would like to see further emphasis on that.

I am a bit perplexed about the allocation of the DEIS status. Obviously financially it is quite expensive for the Department to do it. I acknowledge it results in a reduction in the pupil-teacher ratio and the other additional benefits that come with that allocation. We have three primary schools and one post primary school in Youghal. Following the review, despite all of them being in the same Pobal index, one of the schools got it on appeal and the other three did not. It was a primary school, the smallest of the three. The secondary school also missed out on it. I come from that area which is economically challenged. I was mesmerised as to why one was given it on appeal and the other three were just ignored. It is often discussed here in the PAC when officials from the Department of integration and others have been before us. That town with a population of about 8,000, took on 1,000 migrants with the sale of the Quality Hotel. Per capita, it has one of the highest concentrations of IPAS and Ukrainian refugees. It is a space for families and so there are a lot of children involved here. That was not included in the analysis. I would like to get an insight from the Secretary General on that.

Ms Bernie McNally

I thank the Deputy for his question and for acknowledging the importance of DEIS around the country. I will focus on DEIS in a minute. As the Deputy will be aware, there are children with disadvantage in schools that do not have DEIS status. A number of services and supports are put into them, things like reducing the average class size to 23 over a number of budgets, 2,000 extra English-as-an-additional-language teachers going out into the system, DEIS and non-DEIS. A number of supports are being put into place in every school. As regards DEIS, 1,200 schools have DEIS status. One child in four is in a DEIS school.

The Deputy referred to instances that happen in local communities where some schools are in and some schools are out. We know that causes massive frustration and people question why this might happen. The Deputy will understand when there is a precious resource like this, we must have a system to do this objectively and as fairly as possible. The Deputy knows the background - we use the Pobal HP index which has a formula for calculating it. It looks at the 19,000 special small areas. It uses census data. It looks at the profession, if any, in the family and the number of people in the family. It looks at all of these factors and then shows us where there is concentrated disadvantage. We then layer on top of that Traveller, Roma, homeless and international protection and it identifies for us which schools should have DEIS status and which do not. On occasion, some schools lose out even though they may feel they have the identical profile to the school next door.

All we know is that the system - we have to have a system - is saying that there is a differentiation even though it might not be huge. That is the model. Nothing that any of us does is perfect. We continue to look to see how we can improve it. The OECD is working with us at the moment to see if there is a better identification model and how we might improve upon this. We are not the only Department that relies on the HP index. The Departments of Social Protection, Health and others also use it.

Deputy James O'Connor

What really gets under my fingernails on this issue is the fact that this applies even in a small town. It would be different if it was in the city centre where there is obviously huge difference. On any one street and there could be different financial circumstances depending on the household. I think there are two brackets of Pobal index in Youghal. Even though the exact same base of data was being used, one of the four schools got DEIS status on appeal and it was the smallest of the four. I felt the Department was trying to do the cheapest option, ignoring the other three. That included the one secondary school which was an amalgamation of three. I think it is wrong.

Youghal is one of the most affected areas in the country with the migrants who arrived in 2022. Those schools took on that burden. I have not seen anything of note from the Department to give additional resources those schools. The need has now increased dramatically. With towns that have large centres, Youghal being one of them, many Ukrainians have gone home. Others have been moved to those centres. Youghal has one of those facilities with almost 1,000 people. Where there is a major IPAS centre with over 500 or 600 people, no differentiation is made for that.

That community needs a heap of support but what is also happening is that other migrants are coming from a multitude of different countries to the centres, which accommodated Ukrainians primarily. Arguably, you could make the case that Ukraine was a pretty developed country prior to the war and that the needs of Ukrainians were not the same as those of IPAS immigrants or asylum seekers seeking accommodation. Families in the latter categories come in with nothing. The communities are now taking on the additional need. The Department, as part of its work, needs to say that, in respect of the circumstances in question, DEIS should be part of an emergency response. That is what I want to see from the Department. What occurred in Youghal really annoyed me. I raised it with the Minister on a number of occasions but apparently nothing can be done about it. I am really annoyed that the secondary school, which is arguably taking the heaviest burden, and two primary schools were just left out.

Ms Bernie McNally

As expressed by the Minister regularly, we are extremely grateful to all the schools that embraced the community coming in and did so with a sense of urgency. We may be able to get a report for the Deputy on what resources have gone into the area, if that would help. Whether the schools have DEIS status or not, we did put in 2,000 teachers of English as an additional language over recent years. A significant number of additional teachers have gone in to reflect the number of additional pupils. Teacher numbers in the schools would have increased, or, if a school was about to decrease numbers, it would have retained teachers. There are additional special education teachers and SNAs. Obviously, capitation then followed. In some instances, schools were able to access support from the planning and building unit for extra accommodation. NEPS has been available. We put regional teams into the ETBs and they worked with local schools. We do acknowledge what the schools have delivered and we will get the Deputy a report, if that would be helpful.

Deputy James O'Connor

May I ask Ms McNally one very reasonable question, considering the circumstances? Would she visit Youghal?

Ms Bernie McNally

Absolutely.

Deputy James O'Connor

I will extend an invitation. It would be good for Department officials to go there. I realise it is an unprecedented request to civil servants at a committee meeting, but it would be good to go down and see what it is like for one urban centre to have major accommodation centres for people – now asylum seekers – and how this impacts the schools, and also see the good work being done. I do not want to take away from the latter.

I want to use my limited time, if that is okay. Is Mr. Loftus still in the building unit?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Yes. It is an interesting job.

Deputy James O'Connor

Ms Aoife Conduit

Can I just clarify-----

An Cathaoirleach

That is a political row that will have to be had.

Deputy Verona Murphy

That seems to be what is happening.

An Cathaoirleach

I ask the witnesses to clarify it briefly and we will then move to Deputy McAuliffe.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I have one more question because the Chair allowed Ms McNally in with no information.

An Cathaoirleach

Very briefly.

Ms Aoife Conduit

It is not unique. A large number of concessionary children are accommodated on school transport every year. There are eligible children, children under TAMs and children who would be under TAMs but the school may be full. A large number of concessionary children are accommodated.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Mr. Tom Whelan

I will go back to the prepayment first and then deal with the accrual. The prepayment is made up of two elements. A total of €7 million of it is due to the balance owing to the Department following the end of 2022. There is a schedule of payments that we pay to Bus Éireann. It is agreed for the year and those payments are paid out. At the end of the year, Bus Éireann has its accounts audited and we find out what the balancing payment is, and that can vary from year to year. When we have the final accounts, we know there is a prepayment after the year-end and we get that money back in the following year.

The reason the prepayment increased to €13 million in 2022 compared with 2021 was because, as a cost of living measure, a fuel contribution was made to the contractors for the increased costs. That was €6 million and it was approved by the Government to give that advance payment to Bus Éireann to pay the contractors.

An Cathaoirleach

Thank you. I call Deputy McAuliffe.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

If I were to ask for an update on payslips, is that enough of a question for me to get an answer before we get into a row about it?

Ms Bernie McNally

Ms Bernie McNally

How much of the increase in spending in 2022 on school buildings was due to the cost of inflation or to accelerated construction? Was it almost exclusively inflation?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

The education and training board want to move this on and its staff are anxious about it, as is, I am sure, the CEO. ETB staff have been diligent in trying to push it forward. I want the Department to take an interest in this project. It is essential that this second level school gets off the blocks because, whatever about the demographics of the county and across the State, the population of Portlaoise is going in one direction only. In 25 years, it has gone from 7,000 or 8,000 to 24,000 or 26,000 in the census in 2022. In terms of housing and everything else, we are talking about a population well in excess of 30,000. The estate I live in has increased in size by 50% in the last 12 months. There were 105 houses and there are now 169 houses. That is how quickly this is happening and we do not have the schools needed. I ask Mr. Loftus to respond.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Portlaoise is an area we are monitoring closely and it is an area-----

An Cathaoirleach

Mr. Loftus was not sure whether it was in the red zone or not. It needs to be put into the bright red zone.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Ms Martina Mannion

Ms Bernie McNally

I thank the Deputy for the question. I will come back to the case of the gentleman she referred to. The legislation is going through at the moment. It is going to Committee Stage so the Minister hopes it will be through in this term. That will result in Caranua ceasing officially to exist and the appropriate records being transferred and so on. Progress is being made on that.

Vote 26 - Office of Minister for Education

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Ms Bernie McNally

Ms Bernie McNally

Ms Bernie McNally

Ms Bernie McNally

Ms Bernie McNally

Ms Bernie McNally

Ms Bernie McNally

Ms Bernie McNally

Ms Bernie McNally

Ms Bernie McNally

Ms Bernie McNally

Ms Bernie McNally

Ms Bernie McNally

Ms Bernie McNally

Ms Bernie McNally

Ms Bernie McNally

Ms Bernie McNally

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Ms Aoife Conduit

Ms Aoife Conduit

Ms Aoife Conduit

Ms Aoife Conduit

Ms Aoife Conduit

Ms Aoife Conduit

Ms Aoife Conduit

Ms Aoife Conduit

Ms Aoife Conduit

Ms Aoife Conduit

Ms Aoife Conduit

Ms Aoife Conduit

Ms Aoife Conduit

Ms Aoife Conduit

Ms Aoife Conduit

Ms Bernie McNally

Ms Bernie McNally

Ms Bernie McNally

Ms Bernie McNally

Ms Bernie McNally

Ms Bernie McNally

Ms Bernie McNally

Ms Bernie McNally

Ms Bernie McNally

Ms Bernie McNally

Ms Bernie McNally

Ms Bernie McNally

Ms Bernie McNally

Ms Bernie McNally

Ms Bernie McNally

Ms Bernie McNally

Ms Bernie McNally

Ms Bernie McNally

Ms Bernie McNally

Ms Bernie McNally

Ms Bernie McNally

Ms Bernie McNally

COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS díospóireacht -
Thursday, 16 May 2024