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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ARTS, SPORT, TOURISM, COMMUNITY, RURAL AND GAELTACHT AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Thursday, 6 Mar 2003

Vol. 1 No. 5

IRFU: Presentation.

I welcome Philip Browne, chief executive or the IRFU, and John Lyons, the honorary treasurer. Sport is one of the areas that come under the remit of this joint committee. We have set ourselves a number of tasks, one of which involves examining the pros and cons of the professional and amateur games and other related issues. I was interested to note that Mr. Browne and the Federation of Irish Sports have contributed by saying that Irish rugby would be in dire straits had it not embraced the professional game and that this represents a point of departure for a study, not of rugby exclusively but of sport in general.

We have a rapporteur, Senator O'Toole, and we intend to invite some professional bodies to address the committee. The role of sport in diverting people from over-indulgence in alcohol and the links between alcohol and sport are being examined in a joint study by Deputies English and Fiona O'Malley. Deputy Fiona O'Malley is focusing on alcohol and the arts and she will probably join us. I call on the delegates to make their presentation.

Mr. Philip Browne

As the Chairman said, we are here to enlighten the committee on the importance of the professional game to rugby in Ireland. For a complete understanding of the modern game, it is necessary to examine its history.

The IRFU was founded 128 years ago. Until 1995, rugby was an amateur sport in Ireland. However, since the inauguration of the Rugby World Cup in 1987, increasing pressure from commercial interests drove the game inexorably towards professionalism. In 1995 the International Rugby Board, the international federation for rugby union, recognised that if the sport did not move towards professionalism, commercial interests would take it over anyway. The International Rugby Board was backed into a corner in 1995 and declared the game open.

The IRFU had been a stout defender of the amateur game until 1995. However, it had little choice but to accept the change to an open or professional game once the international board declared it. To have done otherwise would have consigned Irish rugby to an international backwater as it simply would not have been possible for amateur teams to compete with professional ones. This is demonstrated by the fact that we would not have a six-nations championship in which, for once, we have a serious chance of beating France, if we still operated on an amateur basis. We are not taking France by surprise because it believes we have a strong national team.

An uncompetitive international rugby team would have had disastrous consequences for the finances of Irish rugby. In 1995 the revenue from international rugby amounted to approximately 79% of our income. To have jeopardised this revenue stream by becoming uncompetitive would have had a direct knock-on effect in terms of the development of the game at grass-roots level because we fund schools and clubs by direct subvention and also by indirect subvention through our rugby development programmes. In effect, international rugby subsidises our activities, right down to school and under age levels.

At the stroke of a pen in August 1995 we moved from having an amateur game to a having a professional one. Most national government bodies in sport are professional by nature and the IRFU is no exception. Professional rugby was introduced gradually with part-time professionals in 1996. In 1997 we had five full-time professionals per squad and the rest were part-time professionals. By 1999 we had four squads and 25 full-time players in the traditional provincial structure which had served rugby heretofore.

We took the view that we should hold all the contracts. The professional game is financed entirely in Ireland by the IRFU through television income, sponsorship and gate receipts. This structure has allowed us to control the development of the professional game for the benefit of the national team and, ultimately, the benefit of the game. What is good for the national team is ultimately good for the game given that our revenue is generated by the former.

An alternative model is used in England, France and Wales, which involves basing professional rugby in the club system and bringing in private finance. That may work well in large markets but in a small market like that in Ireland, with its small playing population, we felt that it was more appropriate for us to control the situation much in the same way as in the southern hemisphere, particularly in Australia and New Zealand.

In 1999 we had poor results in the Rugby World Cup. We anticipated getting through to a quarter final but we did not. We were beaten by Argentina. That demonstrated that we had not really embraced professionalism to the extent that we should have done, particularly in respect of support personnel. One cannot just pay players to do what they did when they were amateurs. One has to put all the support structures in place to allow them to reach their full potential.

Since 1999, each professional squad has had the benefit of additional support personnel in the form of coaches, fitness advisers, weight supervisors, full-time physiotherapists, full-time video analysts and full-time administrative support. Furthermore, we invested heavily in a centralised fitness unit, which monitors and evaluates the fitness and physical well-being of all 122 contracted players so they are in the best possible physical condition to play in the critical matches each season. There are a number of such matches at international level. We believe the professional game that we have in Ireland exists to support the national team and the critical matches are those played by the national team.

The other key initiative we took since 1999 was to invest heavily in retaining our key players and bringing key players back home from the UK and France. This has paid off because Irish professional teams have won the European Cup once, reached the finals on two more occasions and the semi-final on another occasion. We have never missed out on getting at least one professional team to the quarter finals since the tournament's inception. That tournament is a benchmark for professional rugby at the club level.

The results of the international team have been part of an upward trend since 1999. Success at professional squad level is mirrored by the success of our national team. We have invested heavily and reaped some rewards. There are many costs involved, which I might discuss later. It is important to remember that the key reason we made the investment was to ensure the competitiveness of the international team because this is how revenue is generated. We are not involved in professional rugby for the sake of it. It is not like amateur sport; it is completely different. There has to be a good reason, objective and strategy behind one's involvement. Professional sport brings responsibilities and costs, but it also brings rewards. Our current playing base consists of 13,000 adults with a further 20,000 kids playing in schools and another 16,500 playing in youth clubs. Our professional playing base is 122 players, of whom 89 learned their rugby in Ireland. There is a message in that for us.

It is interesting to compare the Irish situation to that of other countries. Australia, the current world champion, has an adult playing base of almost 46,000 players and fields three professional teams. England has an adult playing base of 174,000 players and fields 14 professional teams. South Africa has an adult playing base of 145,000 and fields 14 professional teams. New Zealand has 43,500 adult players and fields five professional teams. France has 93,500 players and fields 16 professional teams, which will soon be reduced to 14. Scotland fields three professional teams from an adult playing base of 10,500 and Wales fields nine teams from an adult playing base of 16,500 players.

A critical issue for us is playing base and the resources we apply to professional rugby. Of our 13,000 players, 31% are based in Ulster, 25% are based in Munster, 37% are based in Leinster and 7% are based in Connacht. In 1995, 79% of our income was earned from international rugby matches, but by 1999 the game had become more open and professional and commercial income rose significantly as a result. International and European Cup competitions generated 98% of our income that year. For 2003, we have managed to redress the matter and international and cross-border matches now account for 83% of our income. We are hugely dependent on the ability of our professional teams to compete and perform at the highest level because if they do not we jeopardise the key part of our income stream. Expenditure on the professional game was only 4.5% of our income in 1995, but by 1999 it was 45%. This year, 60% of our income will be spent on professional rugby. Grass roots expenditure on clubs and schools was 25% of our income in 1995, 34% in 1999 and this year it will be 29%. The use of percentages disguises the fact that in 1995 spending on grass roots rugby was of the order of £2.5 million whereas this year we are spending €10.5 million.

Consideration of the current international rugby environment is important because it is necessary to understand the context of ones operations when dealing with professional sport. Our market has nothing to do with Ireland, it has to do with what happens in the UK, Wales, France, South Africa, New Zealand and elsewhere. The economic downturn of the past 18 months has put significant pressure on commercial sporting revenues as have concerted efforts by broadcasters world-wide to drive down the value of sports broadcasting rights. ITV renegotiated its deal to televise the soccer matches of the English Nationwide League with the result that many clubs face financial ruin. There is no prospect of a change in this environment in the short to medium term. Most rugby unions face serious financial constraints against a background of static income and the increasing cost of the professional game. Most of the world's major rugby unions are rationalising. The Welsh union is reducing its number of professional teams from nine to four or five and the six nations are examining the cessation of A international matches. SANZAR countries can no longer afford to participate in all under age competitions. We no longer field a sevens team or a student team and there are other areas in which we must look at retrenchment.

The degree of professionalism in European Cup competition increases all the time and our ability to compete is vital which means greater investment in our professional squads will be required. That is mirrored at international level. The resources we apply to our international team represent a fraction of the resources applied to the English, French, Australian, New Zealand and South African rugby teams, but we manage to punch above our weight. International rugby politics is driven by commercial imperatives and Ireland must continue to bring value to international competitions in terms of competitive teams if we are to protect our income streams. We must continue to retain our key players in Ireland as far as possible in a context of increasing costs in the professional game and of the absolute need to increase our investment in the grass roots game. We must ensure that our player development systems are sufficiently well funded to meet the demand for professional players to staff our squads. We cannot currently develop enough players to meet the demands of four squads. We need to invest in facilities with Government assistance which is why the national stadium is critical to the financial well-being of rugby as well as soccer. We cannot realise international rugby's income generating potential through the facilities at Landsdowne Road. International rugby matches are undoubtedly the financial engine for our sport.

We must do more to invest in facilities for our professional squads to play in and Government assistance is vital. We can only look with envy at the staggering level of training and stadium facilities provided by the state and municipalities in France. We have to make do with what we have while investing what we can. Our professional squads must have proper training facilities. Compared to our international counterparts, we are very poorly resourced. It is vital that we continue to invest in top-class support personnel as this has made the difference between our performances before and after 1999. We must continue to be at the leading edge in coaching and sports science in terms of which there is a role for Government.

Irish rugby has benefited enormously from professionalism. Our income has increased significantly with positive effects on the investment we are in a position to make in domestic grass roots rugby. Public interest in the game is at an all-time high, driven by the success of the national team and underpinned by the success of the professional squads in the four provinces. The many misgivings about the introduction of professionalism in 1995 were misplaced as the change has served Irish rugby very well. The challenge for us, as a national governing body, is to preserve the status and ranking of our national and professional teams without neglecting our duties and obligations to the clubs and schools which are the sport's foundation.

I will begin with the two rapporteurs, Senator O'Toole and Deputy English. A great deal was said in the presentation about revenue and finance but I take this opportunity to congratulate the sporting aspect of the IRFU because the national team is doing very well and we wish it success in the next few matches. There are many people playing rugby with 13,000 adults, 20,000 schools and more than 16,000 youth clubs. The IRFU has 122 contracted players. I assume that there are many little Brian O'Driscolls running around and hoping to become national players who have huge aspirations. What supports should be in place to support that young Brian O'Driscoll who goes for national trials but ends up playing in the backwaters of his own parish?

I thank Mr. Browne for his presentation. I wish the team well on Saturday and for the rest of the competition and we will all be cheering it. I do not share the Chair's view that 50,000 playing rugby is a great many people - I think that is a low number. What was the 1995 figure was and how much has it grown since then?

Mr. Browne

It was eleven and a half thousand in 1995. Most sports organisations in Ireland have difficulty in trying to deal with statistics because proper statistics have not been collected for Irish sport until recently. Historical information is quite difficult to obtain. We did a survey in 1987 and the figures have dropped a little bit since 1987 but the percentage figures across the four provinces have been remarkably static. We have turned the corner and there has been a growth in the game in recent years and in youth rugby in particular. Schools rugby has remained static to a certain extent and we see a slight growth now in the adult figures but we would like to see more growth.

We have been fortunate in having Government support for the Tallaght scheme which is designed to bring rugby into a green field site. One of the difficulties in bringing a sport into a green field site is that unless there is an infrastructure it is very difficult to develop a technical sport such as rugby. It can only be done with massive investment. We have matched the Government investment in the Tallaght scheme and we are now bringing rugby to 3,000 children on a weekly basis.

To put things in context, there has been a 10% growth over the past eight years, which is not very significant particularly at a time when changes in the North mean that there has been an increase in schools rugby there. It is not a hugely impressive figure. From our point of view here, participation is a huge issue. If only 50,000 in the whole country are playing rugby it raises the question of what it is worth in terms of investment. A number of issues bother me and perhaps Mr. Browne can clarify them for me. He made it very clear that the move to professionalism was something that happened almost willy-nilly and I do not mean that in any way other than he described it - that international development made it impossible for Ireland to stay outside of that. Will he explain further what he meant when he said it was a choice between professionalism or commercial interests taking over? If a decision had been made in 1995 not to go professional but to control professionalism, knowing what he now knows, will he say how it might be done differently?

I do not understand and I am sure there is a good reason for it but within the jurisdiction he mentioned there is a continuing reduction in the number of full-time professional teams even with more financial investment and development in the game. Is there something that is not happening there? Mr. Browne knows our views on the Connacht issue but the lack of a student team seems to utterly contradict the point he made earlier about the importance of development from the grassroots. He said the investment in schools and junior rugby is around 25% to 29% over the past four or five years, with a marginal drop in one of those years. He said the percentage being spent on professional rugby has gone up from 5% to 60%. It begs the question if the amount being invested in schools rugby stays the same and professional rugby has an increase in investment then the people in the middle must have lost out. I wonder who is the person squeezed in the middle?

Mr. Browne

The quick answer to that is the IRFU. We are running a deficit of €4.5 million this year because we are trying to keep everything going. We are trying to keep professional rugby going as well as domestic investment. We cannot afford to drop our investment——

Has IRFU finances disimproved since it has gone professional?

Mr. Browne

Our finances this year have disimproved for the first time. There are a number of reasons and the prime reason is that if we want to be successful in the professional game we must pay for it. That is ultimately the philosophy behind professional sport. One of our big difficulties in discussing rugby and its evolution is that there is no tradition of professional sport here. Irish rugby is in a unique position in that it straddles both sides. We have huge responsibilities in amateur sport and the development of rugby at grassroots level but we also have responsibilities to the professional game. We cannot have one without the other.

If more is being invested into the professional game and the IRFU finances are disimproving, surely the investment in the amateur game will lose out?

We will take both answers because the next topic will be slightly different.

Mr. John Lyons

I took over as honorary treasurer just as we went professional. The total income of the IRFU at that time was about £8 million. It is now €34 million. We are spending in excess of €20 million on our professional teams. We are trying to hold the expenditure on the grassroots at the same level. It is important to explain to the committee why that would happen in a particular year. We do all our budgeting over a four-year cycle which is from one rugby world cup to the next because that is when we have to deliver the goods. Television and sponsorship contracts on international competition happen in the middle of that period so we have to make an act of faith that they will increase but this time they have not. With the advent of Italy into the six nations competition our revenues are static but we have made commitments and signed contracts in what is an international market. Brian O'Driscoll is contracted to play for the national team but when his contract runs out he will become a free agent. In an international context, to keep him at home and build the Leinster team for whom he plays, and the national team, will require funding. As my colleague, Philip, said, we are faced this year with a deficit of €4 million. If we keep things going without making the necessary cuts, we will be in deficit to the tune of €7 million. That will become an untenable situation. To put it in context, the English Rugby Football Union, who finances 14 professional teams, has a total income of €100 million. There are two clubs in England competing with us at provincial and European Cup level, and their combined revenue is €24 million. These two clubs together take in €24 million between them. They field only two teams, with a structure that backs that up, and they are not making a loss. We have an extra €10 million. We are endeavouring to run four teams, plus the national team, and finance the grassroots scheme with Government assistance. That may put matters in context.

Mr. Browne

A number of other questions were raised which I will try to address. If we could roll back the clock to 1995 and do things differently, we in Ireland would wish that professionalism was introduced at a much slower rate. France, while ostensibly amateur, were in fact professional. The Southern Hemisphere teams were all semi-professional and they have had some full-time professionals. For many years in Wales there was a tradition of semi-professionalism. They were much more geared towards the shift from a totally amateur sport to a professional commercial environment. They have reaped the benefits of being in a better position than we were. It took us some years to get up to speed and we have a long way to go. We have a great deal of work to do.

In regard to dropping the student team, one of the things we found in the move from the amateur game to the professional game is that one inherits many things that were done in the past because it is the way they were done and they cost little or no money. We looked at all our programmes, age groups and teams and found that we were putting teams out to represent Ireland in various forms and guises. We had a universities team, a students team, an under-21 team and an under-19 team. The reality was that we were drawing from the same pool of people to try to field these teams, which did not make sense. The IRFU should be fielding the best possible teams at the particular age grades. If universities or students want to field a team, that is great and I am all for that. At the end of the day, however, the IRFU must be single-minded about what it wants. What we want in terms of our responsibility for developing players to play in the national team is to ensure that we have the best possible teams at the particular age grades. To have a students team, a universities team, an under-21 team and an under-19 team, all drawing from the same pool within that age grade, was costing a huge amount of money. Most other unions throughout the world have adopted the same attitude as ourselves which is to concentrate on the best within a particular age grade.

Are there any thoughts on the people who do not make it?

Mr. Browne

We were asked how do we support the future Brian O'Driscolls? There are two ways to do that. First, we must ensure we have decent coaching structures in place. Across sport in Ireland, we are fortunate that voluntary people have been involved in coaching at all levels. As sport becomes more accountable, it is important we put the proper coaching structures and proper accreditation in place. We worked with the NCTC and the Sports Council in doing that. We want more indigenous Irish coaches involved in the system. We have many Southern Hemisphere coaches who are doing a great job in so far as they can. However, we would like to have Irish coaches involved at club level and national level. To do that, we must put in the coaching pathways. That is one key element.

The other key element is to ensure that the club structures are adequate and that we provide decent facilities. That is another area on which we must work. There must be a proper competition structure in place. We must continually work on those aspects to have meaningful competitions at all levels so that children can reach their potential and move on to the next grade.

In terms of what we do, we stream players from approximately 16 years onwards within our provincial units. We identify the best talent in the age grades. We track them and keep an eye on what they are doing. We bring them together for training sessions. We field teams at various age grade levels. The four provinces compete against each other. We take the best of the players and draw them into what we call the IRFU academy. They are paid a bursary. The last thing we want is a student of 18, 19 or 20 who feels he must go to America to earn money for his tuition, therefore, we pay a sum of money to our academy players which effectively compensates them for spending a summer involved in training camps taking part in fitness, strength and conditioning development. These players then get fed into the under-19 or under-21 team and, I hope, into the national team. They should get inducted into professional rugby at the age of 21 or 22.

Ultimately, there must be a clear pathway so that people know where they must get to, what their objectives are and if they meet the objectives and targets they can move on to the next stage. It requires a great deal of resources and effort to keep tabs on all these people but, ultimately, it is the only way it can be done. There are late developers, particularly in rugby, which used to be a sport for people of all sizes and shapes. It has now changed, they all seem to be the same shape more or less. There is no doubt there are late bloomers in rugby. We have opportunities for them to come to the academy at the age of 20 or 21 so that we do not lose them.

It means putting systems in place and not leaving things to chance. One cannot leave things to chance in professional sport in particular. One must be as systematic as possible.

In regard to people whose expectations would have been built up to an extent, I understand the idea of redeploying them into training or whatever. However, it is a bit like the injured jockeys' fund. Is there a support mechanism post what they would term "professional failure", whereas you would say you are helping the key guys?

Mr. Browne

As my colleague said, it is the same in any sport. People have aspirations and ambitions which they do not always meet. Rugby is moving inexorably towards two streams, the stream of professional rugby players and a stream of amateur rugby players. The game will shift that way for various reasons. A professional rugby player accumulates over the years strengths, power, conditioning and fitness, therefore, the gap between an amateur player and a professional player grows each year. If somebody does not make the professional stream, the amateur stream enables him to continue. We would envisage that, over time, we would have the opportunities for amateur players to play for Ireland and perhaps create an amateur Irish team as well as holding amateur inter-provincial championships. Why not? Why should anybody be prevented from playing for their country, whether it be at amateur or professional level? Ultimately, we must try and look after both streams. This has happened in England, which fields an amateur international team that has played a number of matches. They consider it to be the way forward.

I am involved in a study on behalf of the committee looking at alcohol abuse in sport. The concern is not with drinking, but drinking that is taken too far and the consequent violence and abusive behaviour that occurs. I will be writing to the delegation on this, but I would appreciate its initial views.

The IRFU is spending €10.5 million at grassroots level. Is this concerned with getting younger people interested in the sport? If people become involved in activity sports or the arts, they are more inclined to drink less often. Furthermore, when they drink they do so with their familiars who can cover and look after each other. It is a healthier way of drinking.

Are drinks companies too involved with the sport in terms of promotion and advertising? I do not believe Heineken-sponsored rugby matches will persuade people to drink Heineken beer. I started to drink Scumpy Jack cider, which does not sponsor any activities. How important is the drinks industry to financing the game? I hope our study will encourage the Government to create new initiatives or to provide more money into sporting activities.

For many clubs, including my own Navan rugby club, the bar is important in keeping the show on the road. How important is it overall? If it is considered to be essential, it would seek to encourage people to continue drinking.

Are clubs encouraged to have ethical standards to ensure that standards of behaviour are maintained when they are away? They act as a form of encouragement to people to drink properly. Are sanctions imposed if they are breached?

I know a number of people involved in the Tallaght initiative. It is a major success. Perhaps the delegation could elaborate on what is involved because it offers people a better chance.

We might invite specific comment on that. Do members of the national team advocate that because of their involvement in the sport, they must be fit and healthy, with the result that they do not abuse alcohol?

Mr. Browne

That is a good point. The health dividend is one of the great dividends provided by sport. It may not be immediately obvious this or next year, but it can be looked forward to in the future. There are a number of dividends from sport, including health and economic and social cohesion. Some studies from Canada show that the more is spent on involving people in sport the greater the payback in the form of a healthier population.

Most field sports are heavily reliant on drink sponsorship in terms of running their games. France has its own regulations in this area and difficulties can sometimes arise for teams visiting the country in terms of shirt sponsorships and so on. Legislation may be introduced here to regulate this aspect. Certainly, we should not encourage sports sponsorship by drinks companies. However, if legislation was introduced, the Government would need to be made aware of the funding gap that could be created for sport and how it could be met. Whether we like it or not, the good offices of the drinks companies fund sport in this country to a significant extent. If they did not, who would?

The club bar may be a thing of the past. Rugby was always funded by the weekly hop on a Friday or Saturday night, but that has been removed by clubs as a factor in the economic equation. As a result, they are suffering financially and are struggling to make ends meet. The drink driving laws, which are right and proper, have had an impact, as have concepts of social responsibility. In addition, there has been a significant increase in the number of weekend activities, including theatre, cinema and bowling. This is an issue for rugby and other clubs and some lateral thinking is required to address it. The IRFU has, to a certain extent, subvented clubs and has tried to make up the difference in their funding by direct subvention.

On the question of ethics and standards, I do not know what happens in clubs. Rowing, not rugby, is my sport and from my experience, clubs have their own standards. I believe rugby clubs also have their standards. Players in IRFU teams are given guidelines in terms of what is expected of them, both personally and as international representatives. Ultimately, certain standards should be set and adhered to. In any case, in any team there is an internal discipline set by the peer group. In terms of elite rugby, the old image of having a good time after a match is long gone. It is not on for professional players and those who aspire to be professional. They may have a good time every now and again, but if they want to succeed they cannot afford to indulge in extra-curricular drinking activities.

I will take questions from Deputies Wall, Glennon and O'Shea.

I thank the delegation for its submissions. There are four professional teams in the country. Given the structure of the senior game in the country, many clubs contain semi-professional or professional players. The money that must be generated to pay for them creates a further strain on the system, which could be used to support under-age structures.

What does the IRFU say about the Brian O'Driscolls and other professional players? Should they not be in the club structure rather than in the provincial or professional structure? In saying that I wish them well on Saturday and hope we get the result for which everyone is hoping. If Brian O'Driscoll was with a senior club rather than a provincial team he would attract far greater attention to the club rather than to a representative side. Leinster will always be seen as a representative side but if he was playing with Lansdowne, Blackrock, Shannon or wherever, there would be a major emphasis on supporting that club and going to look at that club. I find it difficult to understand the emphasis now placed on the four provinces' teams rather than the club structure.

Mr. Lyons

One of our objectives with our national players is to restrict the number of games they play. They are professional players and we are endeavouring to restrict them so that they are not over-played. That helps their physical fitness. If we are to play in the European Cup and in the Six Nations Championship, if we are to prepare for the World Cup and go on summer tours, and if we have a Celtic league, there is simply no scope for the top professional to play for his club on a regular basis. Also, the engine that drives our game is the international sport. No money being generated by, for example, Blackrock playing Lansdowne would get to the IRFU coffers.

The other aspect is that this is the level the professional player is at. He is not in the club. The Deputy referred to the fact that there are professional players in the clubs but there are not really. There are players in the clubs being paid small amounts to cover expenses but we do not really have a professional structure in our clubs. We would not advocate or encourage that.

Mr. Browne

The Deputy appears to be wondering why we went for four professional units as opposed to letting the players play in the club system. The whole point of professional rugby is to make sure we have the players playing at the best possible level before they hit international level. If they are not prepared, or are not playing at a high enough level below international level, they will not perform in the international team. The notion that we would have players scattered among the clubs, within the Irish context, would not bear up in terms of the ability to develop and prepare players for international rugby.

I see it happening now in the context of the GAA where the prime players in the county team are not playing all the club matches. I still see some merit in Brian O'Driscoll being attached to a club as well as being with a professional side. In that way we could generate a great deal of sponsorship that could be used for the benefit of the under-age structure within the club. While fully understanding he is not in a position to play all the matches I think the IRFU is losing out in that regard.

The Sunday World had an article showing the percentage of income earned related to the wages of the professional players. It was frightening to see the percentage. Every one of them was 75% or more. One can just imagine the money that is available for reinvestment. I would see the problems facing the IRFU as heading into that region. Because the IRFU is not delegating more it will eat up a great deal of the money that I would like to see going into the under-age structure to build up the teams.

There is an obvious need for capital input into the IRFU. Lansdowne Road needs refurbishment or rejuvenation or an alternative new stadium is required. Something will have to be done also in regard to the IRFU lands in Clondalkin if rugby is to have the facilities necessary to maintain the high standard it has attained. If the standard is dropped we will only have a backwater team and nobody will support it. Rugby must stick with what it has.

Where does the IRFU stand now in regard to negotiations with the Government on the overall capital position? Does the IRFU see a need for capital investment in an overall package for the development of the game as well as in a stadium? Funding is needed to ensure the growth of rugby as an amateur sport as well as a professional one. South Africa had one amateur playing on its team along with fourteen professionals. He was the exception in that structure. I feel the professional teams could contribute to something that would gain financial assistance for the clubs at local level if something was done. Will the delegation enlighten us as to the position in regard to the overall capital structure?

We will take a group of questions and then come back to the IRFU members for their answers.

I join my colleagues in welcoming Mr. Lyons and Mr. Browne. They are due thanks for their informative presentation which will benefit the committee over the years in regard to the onset of professionalism in other areas of sport. The IRFU was thrown in at the deep end and has done a remarkable job. Eight years on it is in a position of strength on an international competition basis. That is a tribute to everybody involved.

I had some involvement in the early days and I have nothing but respect for the manner in which the changeover from the amateur game to the open game was handled and particularly the key decision, referred to in the presentation, of the contract being held at national level by the union rather than by the constituent bodies that make up the union. That was a crucial decision that was made. It was not easy at the time but it has stood the test of time and is now the envy of other countries.

I wish everybody well for the remainder of 2003, both in the immediate future and in the rugby World Cup in the autumn. I also wish them well in achieving the balance referred to earlier between the professional and the amateur game. We tend to lose sight of the fact that for 120 of its 128 years in Ireland, rugby here was an amateur game and the vast majority of people involved in rugby at the moment are amateurs and proud to be so. They have no wish to be involved in the professional game except as spectators and supporters. Striking the balance between the professional and the amateur game is important.

Over the past eight years the administrators, most of whom are amateurs, have given the bulk of their attention to the professional game and to maintaining and consolidating Ireland's position within that game on a world wide basis. This was possibly to the detriment of the amateur game. I was heartened to hear of the possibility of an amateur Irish side taking the field again at some stage in the future. That would be a welcome development but I hope it does not cost too much. It would be a significant advantage to see the propagation of the game at amateur level and to have, let us say, a standard bearer such as a national amateur team. It is a major task and one of which the rugby administrators are conscious.

I also wish them well in trying to strike a balance in their revenue sources. The move towards the restriction of sponsorship by alcohol companies is gaining some momentum, particularly in the area of sport. I hope Government funding will not be found lacking when we, inevitably, reach the point where there will be a restriction placed on alcohol companies sponsoring sporting events, particularly where there is youth involvement.

In regard to the new stadium, in whatever form it takes, there is a general recognition of the importance of a larger capacity stadium from the current 48,000 up to some 60,000. A total of 12,000 tickets at the prices they are fetching this weekend would be a good annual boost to the IRFU's coffers. I wish the IRFU well in all the major challenges facing it.

I place great emphasis on participation at grassroots level, particularly under-age level. As legislators, that has to be something to which we give priority. I would be particularly interested to hear the views of the IRFU on the importance of the provincial teams to the propagation of the game within the respective provinces, especially in non-traditional rugby areas. It is generally accepted, and Mr. Browne referred to the fact, that the numbers of boys playing school rugby has more or less stagnated, with a possible slight increase. With the human resources situation in schools and the decline of the religious participation, it is generally accepted that there is a significant move towards greater participation at club level as opposed to school level. How important is the role of the provincial team perceived to be in that regard, particularly in rural, non-traditional rugby playing areas?

There has been some advance in rugby participation by women and I am aware that there is an Irish Women's Rugby Union. Are there any statistics in regard to this and is it of significance? As a committee we would be interested in the promotion of sport across both genders, particularly at under-age level.

Am I correct in the assumption that most rugby is played south of a line from Dublin to Galway? I do not know if there is a particular reason for this. Is it capable of being developed elsewhere in the same way as in the Tallaght project that was referred to?

In regard to the IRFU's expenditure on the professional game, I would be interested to hear the breakdown of the figure of €20 million that was mentioned. How much of it is spent at national level and how much at provincial level? I would also like to get an indication of the annual cost of the academy, if that is not too much trouble? Other than that, I thank Mr. Browne and Mr. Lyons again for their presentation. It will be useful for the committee as we go forward over the next few years.

Most of the areas have been touched on at this stage. I compliment Mr. Browne and Mr. Lyons on an excellent presentation. I certainly know a great deal more now about the game of rugby and how it is administered.

In regard to the national stadium, what difference would it make to the IRFU's revenue if there were a capacity of 65,000 or 80,000? How often in the course of a season would it be possible to fill an 80,000-seat stadium, assuming that a 65,000-seat one would usually be filled?

Another element of the proposed Campus and Stadium Ireland project was a campus of sporting excellence. This ties in with an area that Mr. Browne, in particular, emphasised, the area of sports medicine and the various supports for injuries and so on, which has been lost sight of in recent times. Part of the proposal in this regard was that the headquarters of the various sporting organisations and so on would be located there. Is this still considered a worthwhile project? Obviously it has to be viewed in the context of all sports, but from the point of view of the IRFU, is it seen as a good idea?

The area of injuries is one that causes me concern and the backup in that regard was referred to. Is there a regime whereby players are cobbled together to go out and play, particularly in important games? Has any study been done, or does the IRFU have any protocols in place in regard to not sending out players in a situation where there is a danger of long-term injury?

In regard to the amateur versus professional game, can a one-time professional player go back and play at amateur level?

Deputy Glennon referred extensively to the issue of areas where rugby is not a traditional game at second level, both in boarding and day schools. Is there any system in regard to getting top quality coaching in schools? If a particular school wants to promote rugby what will the IRFU do for it? Perhaps that relates to a provincial level, I am not quite sure.

I wish to echo some concerns in regard to the relationship between sport and drink, which I make in a general context. Players become role models for younger people and if there is an association with drink, that could have a negative aspect. In regard to sponsorship, can players enter into personal contracts with sponsors outside the structures of the IRFU?

I was late arriving as we were discussing ring-fencing major events with which I am sure the IRFU will be delighted.

The development of professional rugby here was inevitable. There was no great choice in the matter and we followed the lead of other countries. The amateur game was always respected here generally. The IRFU would probably prefer if the amateur games was still in existence, but it is not and for Ireland to compete internationally, we had to become professional. As Mr. Browne said, we must do better than that and develop a greater pool of fitter players, identify talent at a young age and help these young players to develop through academies and the union's coaching network. The process extends from six year olds to those who compete at international level. The advent of professionalism in rugby in Ireland was inevitable, otherwise we would not have been able to compete.

Ireland has been fortunate in terms of international soccer because most of our players are developed by professional clubs in England. The other major issue relates to the GAA but it is totally different. The GAA participates in a compromise rules series against the Australian Football League, whose players are semi-professionals. Intercounty GAA players with the top teams train like professionals but they are not paid because it would be difficult for the association to do so.

Mr. Browne has provided a good insight into professionalism in rugby and it is easy to understand where he is coming from. The critical issue for rugby going forward is a new stadium. The IRFU is examining various possibilities with the FAI. Lansdowne Road is being considered seriously but that review has not been completed. As one who always supported the redevelopment of the stadium, I hope that will be the solution. Everybody in the rugby world has a similar hope. The atmosphere at Lansdowne Road would be impossible to recapture in any other location throughout the world. It is the oldest rugby stadium in the world and it is worth holding on to that tradition. Hopefully, that will happen and the IRFU should stretch the imaginations of its architects as much as possible.

I totally agree with the provision by the Government of matching funding. If the new stadium is too much of an imposition on the union it could strain its resources and revenue streams in terms of the development the professional game, which must be developed to keep pace with the English, Scottish, Welsh, French and Italian unions. All of us favour the Government supporting the IRFU as much as possible. This would be a better investment than building a new stadium at Abbotstown. I hope if the GAA congress decides to open Croke Park to other sports, the IRFU can reach a compromise with the association to host games that would be attended by 80,000 people. That could be done but it will take time to break down the barriers that exist to develop an understanding and a compromise. The union's response on the stadium will be important, although I know the union's representatives cannot say much at this meeting.

If it is not possible to redevelop the stadium at Lansdowne Road because of the restriction of the site, Newlands Cross would be a good option. How much of the union's land there is available, given that it is a major resource? That would be a better site to develop than Abbotstown or, for example, the glass factory site, given that both the M50 and the N7 converge on it. That is an exciting possibility.

With regard to volunteerism in sport, it is more difficult to encourage people to coach in their spare time. We all are much busier than we were ten years ago. How is that affecting the development of rugby? Must the union pay people to do the work done by volunteers in the past? Does that affect the union's revenues and those of grass root clubs? My GAA club at home, Finuge, pays somebody to do that work and I am sure other clubs must do the same. Will Mr. Browne comment on that?

Deputy O'Shea referred to rehabilitation from injuries. Rugby is a significant contact sport and players, inevitably suffer various injuries, including spinal injuries. While improved fitness levels help players to avoid injury because they can move faster and are stronger, this can result in injury as a result of the greater impacts in tackle situations. What supports does the union provide, apart from the rehabilitation centre in Dún Laoghaire for injured players? I meet a player regularly when I visit Boston who was injured badly a number of years ago and he is in a wheelchair. Does the union participate in an insurance scheme?

I am a member of the Oireachtas rugby team. We were undefeated in the last world cup, having won our three games. We were cheated out of the cup by the New Zealanders. We are returning this September to win it fair and square. There is good interest in our team, especially when we travel abroad, because we are making a statement for Irish rugby. Perhaps in the future we can speak to the IRFU regarding sponsorship or tickets. We played Scotland in soccer recently and when we arrived at the dressing room the FAI had all the gear ready for us. That did not happen in Saipan. The FAI looked after us well and perhaps the association has set a precedent for the IRFU to come in and do something.

We will be doing well to achieve gender balance in any sports team. I have done my time in camogie.

Mr. Lyons

There is a list of questions but I wish to make one overriding comment in answer to Senator Glennon's question. We have a limited income amounting to €34 million. We will manage to spend €38 million this year. It is not easy to do that when one has not got it but, nevertheless, that is what will happen. Going forward, there is enormous stress on our resources. One of the problems we face - and it is not generally known - is that both at European cup and international level our revenues are performance-related. By finishing higher in the Six Nations table, the union earns more money, which means we can spend more money at grass roots level on schools and young players. Equally in the ERC, we must ensure our ERC teams finish high up. If one or two teams get to the quarter finals, there is additional revenue. If we do not achieve that, we do not get the revenue.

We have a right to two teams, not three, in the European cup and, therefore, our third team must finish above the Scottish or Italian equivalents. That is difficult in its own way. That means we must ensure those teams are capable of competing at the highest level. Any diminution in the standard of those teams to support something else would be bad business. To promote the game we require the national and the European Cup teams to perform well to generate the revenue to support youth and schools. If one does not happen we cannot do the other. Money is a seriously big issue. We do not have a bottomless pit. For the first time in a long time we are coming under serious financial pressure. I shall let Mr. Browne answer the other question.

Mr. Browne

Deputy Wall asked about the capital structures and our overheads in terms of ongoing current activities and if we had spoken to the Government about them. The answer is, "yes, we have". Leaving aside the national stadium, we need capital investment. We have a capital programme for our regional stadia: Thomond Park; Musgrave Park, the sports ground in Galway which is being dealt with; Ravenhill in Belfast which falls outside this jurisdiction but falls inside our jurisdiction so we have to deal with it; and Donnybrook in Dublin. In addition there is also the capital infrastructure of our clubs. Some clubs, particularly community based clubs, are starting to make serious investment in their facilities because they have been neglected, having been built on the back of volunteers over the years. The reality is that modern kids and modern parents demand a certain standard of facility which does not exist in some clubs. We have to try to address that issue as well. As an oarsman I remember changing in a bush in Blessington. I was prepared to do that but I do not think oarsmen are prepared to do that any more. That is only in the space of 20 years. We have to address local facilities as well as the bigger regional facilities and the national facility.

In regard to current activities the Government has supported the Tallaght scheme and made grants available for our youth development programmes. That is a very good spend by Government. It is money which we can earmark specifically for the development of youth rugby. That money is being well spent in a variety of ways, all of which support the development of under-age rugby from primary school level right up to second level. We tried to match those funds with sponsorship and managed to introduce 35,000 people last year to the oval ball through the Tag rugby scheme sponsored by Ford and partly by IRFU funds, ultimately coming from the Government. Many people have never seen a rugby ball except on television. To feel a rugby ball and throw one around is important. These are small steps. I hope we can bring those people and those kids through the system.

We have a YDO scheme which is vital. The reality is that if one wants to develop rugby or any sport an infrastructure is needed and bodies on the ground. The difficulty is that the economic climate is such that people are busy. Social habits have changed. People are not prepared to spend the time on a voluntary basis that they may have done in the past. If we want to energise what happens at primary and second level and link it to the clubs, there will have to be bodies on the ground. A volunteer cannot go in and introduce Tag rugby to a primary school at 11 a.m. when he is meant to be at his job as an accountant. We said to the Government on a number of occasions and to the officials in the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism that there is no substitute for bodies on the ground. Ultimately, a significant part of the moneys we have received from Government has been used in the form of employing development officers in partnership with clubs around the country. A club takes partial ownership of the person involved and link in clubs to the school system. They are there as a resource for the club and schools also. That is the way we all have to move. To rely on volunteers is simply not possible in a modern era. At the same time sports clubs could not survive without volunteers and we have to be cognisant of that. What we are saying is that the Government has to give us the resources. We have to put the resources into providing bodies on the ground who support the existing voluntary structures, but not to replace them. The voluntary structures cannot be replaced. If one were to tot up the number of hours put into sport by volunteers and apply a monetary rate to the amount of time spent, it would be colossal, and is simply irreplaceable. What we can do is help them.

The answer to Deputy Wall's question is that we have spoken to the Government about our ongoing needs and we want to try to help develop the game at grassroots level. We are putting €10.5 million into grassroots rugby, €3.75 million of which is coming from Government. Out of our own resources we are putting in the bones of €6.5 million into direct grassroots investment. It is vital, it has to be done. Just because the conversation here is mainly about professional rugby, many of our staff and much of our resources are tied up in grassroots club and schools rugby.

Deputy Glennon asked about the role of the provincial team in promoting rugby in schools. The reality is that role models from the national team and, to a lesser extent, the provincial teams have some impact but by far and away the biggest impact is bodies on the ground. Professional players cannot go out and spend two hours every day in schools around the country because they have a training regime. We make use of our players where we can but it is limited usage. The key is to have full-time people out and about working with the clubs and schools. Ultimately, the greatest promotional team we have is the team at Lansdowne Road. The biggest impact is the success of the Irish team. Obviously the success of the Munster team has had an impact there, in Ulster to a lesser extent and, I hope there will be some impact in Leinster. The success has to be utilised. The only way to exploit the success is to have boys on the ground.

Is the Ulster team on the scene as a six counties Ulster or as a nine-counties Ulster?

Mr. Browne

It covers Donegal town, Cavan and Monaghan.

Is the reality more a three and six counties Ulster as opposed to a nine counties Ulster?

Mr. Browne

Administratively and financially and how we resource Ulster, it has always been a nine-county Ulster.

I assume the reason players cannot go to schools is that they are too busy with their regimes and so on. Are the schools brought to the players?

Mr. Browne

They are. The provincial squads bring school kids into training sessions. We bus school kids into the national team training sessions. To be fair, we use the players and they go out when they can. They are training and resting full-time 9-5 and one has to try to schedule it. We make use of our players for promotional purposes.

The women's team is funded by the IRFU and we have embraced women's rugby into the IRFU structure. They have a sub-committee that works within our structure and we provide them with resourcing, both financial and in terms of development officers. Our development officers work not only with men's clubs and men's sections but also with women's sections. They are embraced within the system.

There is a notion that more rugby is played south of the line between Dublin and Galway. The reality is that most rugby is played in the major urban areas. That is partly to do with the history of the development of rugby. That is changing. We are seeing community-based clubs in provincial towns or certainly starting to make serious inroads. That is where the growth in our game is happening at the moment. While we may be seeing a drop-off in rugby in urban areas, we are seeing growth in provincial towns, for example, Carlow, Navan, Ashbourne, Clonakilty, Connemara. Towns which have a club which is the focus of rugby activities for the surrounding area are doing very well. That is where the major growth is happening.

The reality is that developing sport in a green field site with no infrastructure is very hard to do. While we are engaged in the Tallaght scheme, a grand experiment which has worked very well to date, it has taken a huge amount of resources. We have six people working full-time there. That is the reality of introducing a sport into a green field site, particularly a technical sport. It is necessary to invest in bodies on the ground. The next phase of that project is to put the physical infrastructure in place. We have been fortunate in that we have been able to get some infrastructure from the local community colleges and some of the local schools, but we have to move on to the next stage if we really want to make that experiment work in the long-term.

Expenditure on the professional game is more than €20 million. We can give some indication of how that is broken down. In regard to the sub-professional game, which is effectively our academy, our provincial foundation, the fitness advisers being put into schools cost about €1.2 million. We are spending nearly €14 million on provincial rugby on the four professional squads. The balance is spent on the national team and also on the minor representative sides. The minor representative sides cost about €1.2 or €1.3 million, or about €7 million or €8 million altogether. The reason provincial rugby costs so much is the cost of the national players is absorbed into the costs of the provincial squad. In other words, the full cost of a national player is attributed to the provincial team, in the same way as, if we wanted Martin Johnson to play for Leinster, we would have to absorb the full cost of that. To clarify that, we absorb the cost of the professional player wherever he plays. In other words, the cost of a Leinster player like Brian O'Driscoll is absorbed into Leinster's costs. The cost of running the provincial teams is the same. If we eliminate one or two anomalies in coaching costs, there is no difference in the non-wage costs of players, Apart from that - and that was misrepresented in the press when people talked about the allocation of cost and resources to one province as against another - there is no difference. It costs the same for a player to be fed in Munster as it does in Leinster.

A number of questions were asked about the stadium. Everyone in Irish rugby would love to be able to stay at Lansdowne Road. That is something we have said publicly on many occasions. We have engaged professional consultants who will tell us what is or is not possible. We await the outcome of their deliberations and we will find out exactly what is possible or if anything is possible. We are also looking at all the other available sites, again with our professional team of consultants, because we want an objective report which will clarify once and for all what is or is not possible.

In regard to the national stadium, we need a 65,000 capacity stadium. We need that for a number of reasons. The first is that the demand is there. The second is that if we have to fund part of this cost we need to sell seats in advance. Currently we must survive and run our rugby activities off a 48,000 capacity stadium at Lansdowne Road. If we end up with a situation where we have sold seats forward in order to build a stadium and we do not have enough seats to sell in a new stadium to fund our current level of activities, we will be in big trouble. We would end up in a situation not unlike that in Wales where they are so busy servicing the debt on their stadium that they cannot fund their current activities or fund the game. We have always taken the view that our role is to develop rugby, not stadia, but we need the stadia to help fund the game, so we must be very careful how we do it because if we get it wrong it could break the sport.

What about rehabilitation?

Mr. Browne

Our players are independently monitored by an independent fitness unit on a weekly basis. We know exactly what players are doing, when and where, how many minutes of rugby they play. We know what injuries they have received, how they are being rehabilitated, when they are likely to be available to play again. We have always said, and we will continue to say that the players are a key asset of Irish rugby and that our job is to allow them to maximise their potential as rugby players, but that we must maximise their career span as a rugby player. In other words, we will not take short-term decisions on players' welfare in order to satisfy our ambitions as a governing body. Player welfare is very high on our list of priorities. Amateur players are insured. We have an insurance scheme in place for amateur players which is probably the best in place in world rugby, albeit one must accept and recognise that the benefit derived from an insurance claim probably does not compensate in its entirety for the trauma of a quadriplegic injury or cover the costs which at the moment actuaries reckon are in the region of about €2.5 million to €3 million over a lifetime. Our benefits are at the moment in the region of £700,000, almost €1 million, and players have the option to top that up if they wish. The reality is that most clubs do not take top-up insurance unless they have experienced a serious injury within their club. Rugby is a contact support and there are risks inherent in it. Funnily enough, professional rugby is not where the injuries occur. There will be knocks, bruises and broken bones in professional rugby but the majority of injuries occur at lower levels, in J1, J2 and J3 leagues. It is a concern and we are a looking at the whole issue of safety at those levels at the moment. In France, for instance, they have special rules or laws in place for deep scrummaging in order to ensure the scrummage is as safe as possible. These are all things being considered not only in Irish rugby, but in world rugby. We have to be cognisant of the risks.

Mr. Lyons

To emphasise what Philip Browne has said, we have very strict medical protocols as far as the professional player is concerned because we can control his activity. We cannot tell an amateur player whether he is fit to play on a Sunday. We have very strict medical protocols which are observed and if anybody breaks them, it would be taken very seriously.

I will bring the meeting to a conclusion as you have been more than fair with your time. It has been a very enlightening experience for the committee. Senator O'Toole or Deputy English might have further questions on the two studies in which they are currently involved. Deputy Deenihan is involved in the study on women in sport on which we touched today. We wish the team well and wish you well in expanding sports facilities. One of the points you made is that there should be greater access for sport in education and health policy. As politicians, we often find departmental integration does not happen enough. This committee, however, is able to talk to organisations like yours and I hope our reports will impact on Government policy and decisions.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.55 p.m. sine die.
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