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Joint Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 14 May 2024

Regulation of the English Language Sector: Discussion

I remind members to ensure their mobile phones are switched off for the duration of the meeting as they interfere with the broadcasting equipment, even in silent mode.

Are the minutes of 30 April agreed to? Agreed.

I welcome to the first session - I will do my best to pronounce the names correctly - from the English Language Students' Union of Ireland, ELSU, Mr. Fiachra Ó Luain, labour rights officer; Mr. Mashun Karakayun, member; Mr. Geronimo Alves De Oliveira, member; Ms Itzel Monserrat Martínez Murillo, communications officer; Mr. Jaime Nieto, member; and Mr. Ricardo Antonio Sotelo Rodriguez, member.

The witnesses are here to discuss the need for greater regulation and oversight of the English language sector. The format of the meeting is that I will invite the witnesses to make a brief opening statement of five minutes each. This will be followed by questions by committee members who have five minutes each, owing to time restraints. The committee will publish the opening statements on its website today.

Before we begin I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an individual either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against a person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of a person or entity. Witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they may say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse the privilege and it is my duty as Chair to ensure the privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed by the Chair to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction. I can suspend the meeting at any stage.

I remind members that we will be sticking to the five minutes. Witnesses and members will see the clocks count down. We have a second session and we have to be out of the room by a specific time. Mr. Ó Luain has five minutes.

Mr. Fiachra Ó Luain

Do the other members have five minutes as well?

It is just Mr. Ó Luain.

Mr. Fiachra Ó Luain

I thank the Chair and committee members for this opportunity.

ELSU was founded in May 2020, after the largest surveys ever conducted in the English language education, ELE, sector. We have since engaged with the Government and others on a wide range of issues. What followed the surveys was a period of frequent meetings, on average once a week until the reopening in 2021. Through these meetings we provided an online interlingual clinic for students to air grievances and suggest remedies for the diagnosable symptoms. This clinic soon became an accident and emergency department, A and E, with some situations moving quickly up the priority list and requiring much more urgent action from those of us who were scrambling to help as best we could. Adrenaline and the knowledge that some tangible difference was being made by our efforts sustained us, but the emotional and mental toll of having to constantly filter through some of the most harrowing tales to emerge from this invisible section of society was significant. This has not been easy for anyone and has been done on an entirely pro bono basis to date.

Upon arrival, one quickly learns that the 20-hour rule is all but a myth - a fable being used so that Ireland’s economy can benefit from a constant supply of educated but vulnerable labour who are less likely to know their rights and know how to complain when things go wrong. Students seem to be expected to first become fluent in “wink-wink-nudge-nudgery” before they can learn English. Most English language students work many more than 20 hours per week because they have to in order to survive here. Precisely because of these rules, many of them often have to work for less than minimum wage. Increasing the number of legal working hours from 20 to 30, as has happened in Spain, would help combat the exploitation of students and stop the race to the bottom.

From a bird's eye view, the main problem in the sector is that Ireland, after centuries of net emigration, has quickly transitioned to being to a country of net immigration, and the narrow interests of private English language schools are basically being given free rein to run the sector on a for-profit, pro-growth and pro-greed basis. The Department seems to interpret the exponential growth of this sector as an indicator of unqualified success, despite the very obvious constraints that should by right temper such ambitions, such as the critical lack of appropriately affordable housing, teaching staff and the refusal of the Government to do a simple income-over-expenditure analysis for those who arrive here and want to follow the rules by the book.

The rules state that students must attend more than 85% of their classes over the duration of a course if they are to be able to renew, but we know students are often expelled for dropping below an 85% average attendance rate, even if they are just a portion of their way through that course. To our knowledge, there is no data being kept on retention rates. Once a student pays up, they are entirely at the mercy of their school, and we have seen spurious reasons being given for the expulsion of some students, presumably so that more space can be freed up for new arrivals. There seems to be no disincentive for schools interpreting rules in ways that only suit their bottom line.

Qualified teachers, often with master's degrees, are being paid as little as €13 per hour by some schools, which obviously affects esprit de corps and staff turnover. Some schools use advanced level students without any qualifications as teachers for their students of lower levels.

As well as flouting the rules of education and justice, health and safety transgressions are also frequently observed, especially of fire regulations. Some schools have to make sure that at least one class is outside for a walk each day due to the lack of teachers and classrooms.

Students in this sector are the only migrants who have to shell out €300 every eight months, as opposed to on a yearly basis, for their IRP cards. A number of years ago, the sector was moved from a 12-month to an eight-month basis. This was to facilitate continuous enrolment that only favours the schools and those in receipt of the administrative fee. This clogs up the system unnecessarily and some interpret the prolonged delays in the processing of applications - sometimes the delays are longer than three months - as being part of the chill effect. Such delays increase the likelihood of personal crises and students falling between the cracks. Administrative delays in the straightforward renewal of IRP cards often leads to students losing their jobs, which can have obvious knock-on effects.

As we witnessed on 23 November last, this situation is being exploited by certain agent provocateurs, who we all know have been trying to seize the narrative since at least 2020. We can but speculate about the source of funding for these groups, their ultimate objectives and the degree to which they are being co-ordinated from outside of the State. However, let us be in no doubt that since Brexit, there are those who cannot bear to see Ireland be a success story and are organising here to try to turn us against each other. They utter, without any hint of irony, statements such as, “You’re in Ireland, speak English” - a moronic oxymoron that stabs every gaeilgeoir and student of Irish history in the heart. Even if there were equal opportunities for international students to come here to study Irish, the fact is that the current pro-greed model is hollowing out the educational experience for all.

The findings and recommendations of the Government-commissioned Pat King report of 2019 have not been taken into proper consideration and the situation is now worse rather than better as there has been a total lack of inspections between then and now. This is a matter we recommend interrogating with Quality and Qualifications Ireland, QQI, departmental officials and the schools. Accreditation and Coordination of English Language Services, ACELS, has yet to be properly replaced by QQI as the body charged with carrying out the inspections needed to maintain standards. Despite all of the hype about the proposed new international education mark, IEM, it has been years since any school in Ireland has been inspected and in this vacuum, the sector is festering and metastasising.

I thank the committee for the opportunity to come here today.

The first member up is Senator Dolan, who is not here. I call Deputy Sorca Clarke, who will be followed by Deputy Jim O'Callaghan.

I am giving my time to Deputy Mairéad Farrell.

Okay. No bother.

I thank the witnesses for coming in and sharing their experiences. I know the experiences have been very difficult, but to have to come forward can be very difficult as well. We really appreciate them coming before this committee. I thank them very much for that because it has been incredibly important.

Mr. Ó Luain's opening statement set out the challenges and experiences very well. What percentage of schools and agents meet the minimum standard? What percentage of them are failing?

Mr. Fiachra Ó Luain

I will say what I think and then pass over to Ms Monserrat Martinez Murillo. Basically, there should not be a role for agents. The rules say that moneys that come from outside of the State or Europe must be placed in escrow accounts until people are here and all their applications are made. Agents allow schools to circumvent the ILEP rules and get around the Department of Justice's own rules. Anyone can set up as an agent. Agents are not registered or regulated. Moneys are paid in riyals or pesos, for example, and they are sometimes kept in country but then agreements are made with the schools here. Sometimes schools have a nominal other entity which is separate from the entity in Ireland but moneys are paid and kept in the original country and then business is done. It opens the door to money laundering and other sorts of abuse. Most importantly, it means that students' investment and money, which very often are the result of years of saving or the sales of cars and houses, are not safe. In the event of an emergency, it is they who take all of the risk but none of the reward. Ms Monserrat Martinez Murillo might talk a little about her experience.

Before she does so, Mr. Ó Luain mentioned that Department officials confirmed that significant knowledge gaps had been uncovered within the sector. What kind of improvement in data collection oversight is needed? Could this be added to the experiences?

Mr. Fiachra Ó Luain

One of the recommendations would be to have a feasibility study for the sector, including an assessment of the number of teachers available and the number of affordable beds available. Currently, it is possible to sell any number of courses. Once students come through the airport with their wee letter, they are in the country and whether they fail, sink or swim is up to them. The agency does not care anymore. The student is here. The agency has the student's money, and it is up to the student. The thing is these courses are being sold on a base of exponential growth and it is often the case that there are massive attrition rates that are not recorded. People are often pushed out of schools for spurious reasons. The students may have valid reasons for not being able to attend, such as burns and real illness. Tangible and visible reasons people cannot attend are not accepted unless they have a doctor's note, which costs at least €50. When it comes to what needs to be done, we need to consider the scope in this State and in each city and county for the number of students. The students add tremendous value to our economy and society but the sector is not being regulated in ways that are favouring them as the consumers, the investors or Irish society. We need to make sure that we have a clear idea. In this country fishermen have quotas but English language schools do not. This is ridiculous. It is the pro-greed model. The worst excesses of what happened in the previous crisis are now on show again in this sector. It is just making money hand over fist. Ms Monserrat Martinez Murillo might like to comment.

Ms Itzel Monserrat Martinez Murillo

I thank Mr. Ó Luain. He covered most of the things I was going to say. Many agencies are selling courses and they do not have a specific number to sell. The schools are getting overcrowded. That is a big problem because the students are not receiving the quality they are paying for. That is it, basically .

Mr. Fiachra Ó Luain

We could comment about which schools this relates to but we do not want to do so, understanding the rules outlined by the Chair. There are different groups and standards vary accordingly.

How is the accreditation and coordination of English language services, ACELS, functioning? Have the witnesses had any engagement with it on the various issues that students have encountered? I am aware I only have limited time but there will be other questions.

Mr. Fiachra Ó Luain

We have had some engagements with QQI. It all sounds great but it is always in the distance and has not happened yet. The Pat King report was done in 2019. Yes, we had the pandemic in the meantime, but that report showed what was wrong. We are now halfway through 2024 and it is the lack of regulation that is the problem. In this vacuum, things are getting much worse. Those of us from County Donegal know what happens when regulations are not observed. It is a serious crisis.

I might finish with one question. Why has it been so slow in terms of regulation?

Mr. Fiachra Ó Luain

People are making too much money. Everyone is making money off the backs of their investments.

That is why Mr. Ó Luain thinks it has been so slow in terms of regulation.

Mr. Fiachra Ó Luain

There is no incentive to regulate in a rush.

While people are suffering.

Mr. Fiachra Ó Luain

Yes, and while Ireland's reputation is suffering.

There has been a significant drop off of Latin Americans of Spanish speaking countries coming to this country in the past year or two years, because of the reputational damage of certain circumstances. We are killing the goose that laid the golden egg and it is a shame. We could have a good thing going with this but we are wasting that chance.

I call Deputy Jim O'Callaghan, followed by Senator Pauline O'Reilly.

I thank our witnesses for coming before the committee. I would also like to commend Mr. Ó Luain for doing this on a pro bono basis. It is important to acknowledge that. I learned from another statement from the people coming in later that we have around 128,000 language students in Ireland. Would that be about right, Mr. Ó Luain?

Mr. Fiachra Ó Luain

I believe so.

Obviously Mr. Ó Luain cannot speak for all language students, but I presume a significant majority of them have to work. Is that Mr. Ó Luain's assessment of the people they represent?

Mr. Fiachra Ó Luain

Ireland is advertised as a place where students can study and work. That is key to how people make the decision to come here, otherwise they could go somewhere else. Ireland is advertising itself as a place where students can come and work but massive delays often inhibit that ability and push people into the informal economy.

One of Mr. Ó Luain's concerns is that under the rules language students can only work for 20 hours. He would like to see that extended to 30 hours as is the case in some other European countries.

Mr. Fiachra Ó Luain

I do not want to take up too much speaking time, so we might ask some other people this question, but I do know that the rule about 20 hours was brought in in 2010 when a person could rent a room for €200 a month in Dublin. That is no longer the case. By moving the limit from 20 to 30 legal working hours, as has been done in Spain, we would be protecting these students from exploitation outside of the law. I would like to ask the others, who may like to speak, why it is important to increase the number of hours from 20 to 30?

Does Mr. Alves De Oliveira want to come in?

Mr. Geronimo Alves De Oliveira

I thank the committee for the opportunity to speak. I came here as a student studying for a degree. My experience has been that it is quite impossible to make money to pay my bills, my rent and my college fees, which were €4,500. Sometimes one gets a position working 20 hours. Sometimes I worry about saving money and how to pay for everything I came here to do, even to learn English. Sometimes when I am learning English in class, I am thinking about whether I should get what I need. In the pandemic, I had to try to get some money, not just from the Government. The Spanish made working 30 hours possible for students. The 30 hours made people a little bit more confident to do whatever they need to do.

Can I ask Mr. Nieto if, having worked here, he thinks 20 hours is sufficient or does a person need to work longer than 20 hours?

Mr. Jaime Nieto

It is absolutely not sufficient. Most of my housemates are language students and I see them struggling to try to find a job because most employers want to hire full-time workers. Two years ago I started in college and I graduated last year. Most employers were telling me to wait until I got my new stamp, which is a stamp 1G visa that allows me to work full time. Now I am getting calls from employers and they want something more solid than a stamp 1G and they are looking for a stamp 4G. If I am finding it very difficult to find a job, having a full-time work visa, for language students it must be a lot worse.

When Mr. Nieto was a student, what percentage of his time was spent working? How many hours was he working?

Mr. Jaime Nieto

I was working very few hours. I was doing a level 9 QQI masters, so studying, reading and doing other things really required a lot of my time. I limited myself to working part-time, even less than 20 hours.

What about Mr. Karakayun? How did he manage to combine being a student and working, or did he?

Mr. Mashun Karakayun

I was lucky because my brother was here and I was working 20 hours. It was my brother who supported me. If you want to work and study, you need to go school in the morning after which you need to go to work. Even if you are working 20 hours, you have to work five days. If you are working part-time, it does not matter as you have to work five days.

They do not pay more than the minimum salary. Even if we want to rent a house or something, everything is expensive in terms of studying here. We get the minimum wage but it is not enough for us.

Okay. In terms of the working experience, did the witness find it difficult to survive when they were studying English?

Mr. Mashun Karakayun

Yes. It was really difficult when I was studying and went to school because I could not sleep enough. Students who study here have to work as well. When you are called, you have to go to work. When you are not needed, you have to leave the work. Students need to study if they are going to study here. They need time to study.

I thank the witness.

Mr. Fiachra Ó Luain

I ask members to do the maths. As Mr. Karakayun said, students can expect minimum wage as a maximum. If that is multiplied by 20, that figure is around what the dole is. Their maximum potential legal income is the minimum legal income of everyone else. Yet they do not have family support networks and have to pay non-EU fees when it comes to moving up a level. The members can do the maths. It is not fit for purpose. It needs to be changed. It needs to move in line with Spain, from 20 hours to 30 hours. It is only the dignified, respectful thing to do.

I thank the witnesses for coming in. They are very welcome. It is really beneficial to hear their voices in the committee room. I have three very basic questions and answering them probably will not take that long. There was mention of little enforcement of the interim list of eligible programmes, ILEP, rules and that where transgressions by schools and their agents are identified, there rarely seems to be any meaningful consequences. Can the witnesses give us an example of the types of breaches of those rules and some instances where they believe a breach of rules should have warranted greater actions by authorities?

Mr. Fiachra Ó Luain

I am mindful to respect the rules of the committee but I do have a tangible example of when the reopening happened in June 2021.

Without identifying any specific person or-----

Mr. Fiachra Ó Luain

Yes. I do feel the reasons given for the reopening of the sector was for the existing cohort. This was not true, and I believe that the then Minister, who is the current Taoiseach, was mislead by sectoral stakeholders. I have raised this, and I do think that is a serious issue of governance that we can have sectoral interests misleading a Minister about the reasons for reopening. Public health was jeopardised because of that and I have every reason to believe the then Minister was mislead and was not aware he was being misled.

That is deeply concerning. The witness mentioned the Taoiseach. When our current Taoiseach was Minister for higher education, what action, if any, did he take to address the problems in the sector?

Mr. Fiachra Ó Luain

I have not had the opportunity to speak with the Taoiseach, so I will let him speak for himself on that. I will say I interacted more with the people in his Department and my concern was around the real public health concerns, the fact the reasons did not reflect reality and that was not taken into consideration. When we proved that the Minister was deceived, we were told there would be consequences but we did not see any consequences. We were kind of told that we should not go there and prove this to be the case. On 21 June 2021 many people came into the country for the purposes of studying the English language. They were not the existing cohort. People, who had not had the chance to be vaccinated, were mandated to share classrooms with new arrivals coming from different countries. When we tried to prove this, and when we did prove this, we were not invited to further meetings after proving that the Minister had been deceived. We were concerned about that.

There have been a number of agency frauds. There is no oversight. There is no discussion about it. What we have seen in the sector is that the English language has been weaponised as it was done to the native Irish.

This State is showing its true character in assuming that, somehow, we all use the English language. If you do not have a firm grasp of the English language, then you have fewer rights in this country. It was true in the 1800s and it is true again in 2024.

My final question is for any of our guests who would like to answer it. Broadly speaking, if the witnesses could ask the Minister to make three immediate changes to benefit the sector, what would these be?

Mr. Jaime Nieto

One would be to extend the 20-hour work limit.

Mr. Geronimo Alves De Oliveira

I would say the same and that we be allowed to work more hours weekly.

Mr. Jaime Nieto

Maybe it might be possible to be more flexible about allowing night courses. To get a student visa, your full-time course must take place during the morning or the afternoon. If the course could be delivered at night time, this would mean students could have part-time jobs in the mornings or afternoons. That would be great.

Ms Itzel Monserrat Martinez Murillo

My point would be to have more of a focus on health issues. Perhaps there could be a right to be attended by a GP on time, because sometimes GP practices are full and students have to wait and are then left until the end because they are students. Maybe something could be done about the consultation fees students pay as well.

Mr. Fiachra Ó Luain

Instead of pushing for open-ended growth, it could be agreed what the capacity in the sector is. Different schools could be given quotas and we could see how they do based on them. The schools would then have a vested interest in training teachers up and ensuring the pay scales reflect the experience and ability of the teachers so they can be kept in the sector. The Government needs to play a much greater role in terms of being hands-on in the sector. The State should be involved in the contracts for these teachers. Audits also need to be undertaken of every school and agent.

Mr. Mashun Karakayun

I think health insurance should be improved. When we come here, we cannot get a European Health Insurance Card, EHIC, or a public services card because a lot of documentation is sought before we can apply for these kinds of things. When we come here, our health insurance is not enough for us. Even if we want to go to the GP, it is not sufficient. I have health insurance. I have been living here for three years but I never go to the GP. I need something serious to happen to me before health insurance will cover it. Otherwise, health insurance will pay out nearly nothing. If something serious happens, if I almost die, for example, then everyone is going to help me. I do not need health insurance for something like that. It will not help me if I am sick at home, however.

I thank the witnesses.

I call Senator Eileen Flynn.

I thank all our witnesses for coming in. I know it is not easy to put themselves out there and talk about rights for students. This is especially the case for black or brown students in Ireland today, and for anyone who is different. It is unfortunate to see the level of racism and discrimination on social media and the resulting fear out there among students from foreign countries. People are fearful out in society now if they are an other in Ireland. That said, the majority of Irish people are kind and want the best for everybody. It is important to keep this in mind as well.

Our health system would not still be standing if it were not for people from minority backgrounds. They have allowed our health system to operate to the level it is able to today. From my own recent experience in the emergency department in Letterkenny hospital when my lung collapsed, the doctors and nurses I dealt with at the time of that emergency were all staff who were not Irish, and this is the case everywhere around the country. The doctor who saved my life was a black doctor, and a black woman doctor. Obviously, many of these doctors were students from other countries who decided to work here. Some doctors who have been working in our hospitals since the 1990s still cannot get their families over. They originally came over on student visas.

I heard the opening statement contributions from my office and I have also read the documents submitted to the committee. What can we do?

We can sit here for hours and talk about inequality, and I can probably talk about that issue more than other members. I know some of those issues from walking into canteens and restaurants, or into any local shopping centre. People and students from other countries do not get the same level of treatment as a white, settled worker in those shops. Migrant Rights Centre Ireland, MRCI, recently dealt with a case in a restaurant relating to a woman. I know now she was not on a student visa but I do not think the visa makes any odds, in one sense. The woman was working for 50 hours a week and being paid €200. I have done a lot of work with MRCI around those who work with impaired people and who come to this country to work as carers. They are treated like rubbish, and we should not accept that in this country.

My question to our witnesses is what should we do and not what can we do. What action can we take in the short term? We could fill this room with suggestions but it is about being able to take action as soon as possible for us, as a committee. I talk about access to education and being successful. We all have the access but it is about being successful within the educational system in this country, including in universities, for people from minority groups and people who come to this country for education. What should the committee do? We should stop all the talk about international students and the English language and should put our money where our mouths are and treat people as human beings because in Ireland in general now, I am angry at how we treat black and brown people, those from disadvantaged countries, let us say, and countries that are going through wars. We are treating people like objects, and that is now the norm in the country, including among our political parties and activists, and people running in local elections. There is all the talk in the media at the moment about immigrants and migrants. It must be very tough to be a student in this country who is not from Ireland or who looks non-Irish. It must be really difficult. I do not know if the witnesses have any experience in that regard. Perhaps there is something they would like to share. I am sorry for going on, but I have so much solidarity with our foreign students.

We have time left in the Senator's slot.

Mr. Fiachra Ó Luain

Mr. Alves De Oliveira was a caregiver and might be able to say something.

Mr. Geronimo Alves De Oliveira

At the start of the pandemic, at the same time as we were hit with Brexit, I was working in a warehouse. Then I had no job and needed to go around and see what I could do. I applied to work as a carer. It is still my main job and I do 20 hours or 18 hours, sometimes on Fridays and Saturdays or overnight to help a client. Sometimes it is quite hard because if a client has to go into hospital or passes away, you do not have any hours at all and must wait from one to three months, or more, until a new client comes over and you get an increase in hours, get established and everything done and then you can relax a little and keep going.

The way we work means there are no guarantees of working hours for caregivers in Ireland. As students, we never knew what was coming. I do not know exactly what we should do but through my experience, I think we should try to see if we can establish permission for students to work for more than 20 hours. The main point is that we should allow students to work more than 20 hours. Perhaps I can do some hours here or there, or I can call somebody else to see if he or she can complete those hours a little more, perhaps 15 hours. Sometimes people - I have done this previously - work for two companies to try to make the economics come together. If you work for just one place, sometimes it cannot guarantee hours for you.

I would like to hear about the experience of being a student now.

I have given the Senator eight minutes.

Where does it state that is the limit? It does not state in any of the terms and conditions of a committee-----

-----that the time is limited. Where in the rules does it state that?

Senator, I have been fair to everybody.

I know. I am just-----

It was agreed before the meeting started that I would give everyone a five-minute slot. All members agreed that.

Yes, but it does not state that anywhere-----

I call Deputy Pringle.

-----so I am just letting you know for future reference. Those are not the rules of the committee.

We agreed this. It has never been an issue at this committee, and I have been Chair of it for over four years.

I call Deputy Pringle.

I thank Mr. Ó Luain and everybody else for their contributions. I have a couple of questions. Obviously, the model we have in Ireland for student workers does not work. Do the witnesses have an idea of a model that works in advance for people to prepare themselves for coming here? If so, can they explain what it is?

Mr. Fiachra Ó Luain

May I answer first? Then anyone else who wants to come in afterwards may do so. I have studied developmental economics, so the following are not just attitudes. I look at the Irish economy and see great demand. Every party agrees that we need to build houses and replace those people from Donegal and other counties we lost after the last recession. There are people here working for Deliveroo and other such companies, whose profits are not declared and which do not pay taxes on those profits. Those people would love to be contributing towards our capital infrastructure needs. It is very hard to hate the foreigner when the foreigner is building your house. We need to look at models whereby we can show, just as the Irish built America and post-war Britain, that when we allow these people to come in, they are here for education and also for professional development. They should be let in, given free Safe Pass and manual handling training and got trained up in the things we need, such as caregiving. They should be let do that with dignity and be able to balance that with study and work. Evening classes should be facilitated. People should be let work during the day, when the demand for their work is there. It should be understood that we advertise this country as a place where people can work and study. Study and work should be dignified. It should be ensured that applications are done, like in Canada, before people arrive in order that when they arrive, the State knows who they are, they have their PPS numbers and everything they need and they are facilitated to work and study without other concerns. At the moment, there are three-month waiting lists, PPS numbers and IRP cards never arrive, and sometimes they are in the wrong name. The system is half-baked. We could look at the Canadian model or other models out there and look at which sectors really need people.

I would look at construction, healthcare and other sectors. When people finish their two years of English-language training, they should be facilitated to train in whatever is needed in our economy and society. There is a mismatching of the resources we have available with the needs that are there. We just need to make those meet. Then we would have a much happier society. Since the pandemic, we have not been spending enough time with one another to help build that mutual understanding and empathy that build societal cohesion and make the Irish part of Chicago and the Irish part of London. We need to make sure that is built on strong fundamentals. We are not doing that at the moment because right now it is for the profit of the private English language schools and the landlords cramming the students into houses. We need root-and-branch reform and we need to make sure everyone is treated with the dignity he or she deserves.

So, under the Canadian model, or if we had a similar type of model here, you could apply for your PPS number and all that before getting here, and it would be here waiting for you. When you come in now, you spend months waiting and waiting for those to arrive. That is a problem.

Mr. Fiachra Ó Luain

Yes. Ireland has published its Latin American strategy. We are beginning to look at what could be done, but the Irish Embassy, to my knowledge, is not really involved in the application process. Under the Canadian model, a person applies well ahead of time and makes sure everything is published. Whatever Canada needs to know about someone, it can find out before they arrive. Your PPS number and your IRP card are there; you are not waiting for three or four months for one thing or another - and if it is not one thing, it is the other. It is very frustrating. We are doing this to people whose primary purpose is to learn English. They do not have fluency yet. We are making it more difficult for the people who are less able to negotiate and navigate. That is why they are quickly learning that in Ireland it is a wink-wink, nudge-nudge culture, that the rules are not really the rules and that you should just get away with it in any way you can.

This only favours private interests. We need to meet people where they are.

Earlier, Mr. Ó Luain spoke about the agents and so on. Just so I understand it, is it the case that schools give the role of dealing with the students over to the agencies and that there is no legal basis for this?

Mr. Fiachra Ó Luain

Agents do not appear in the ILEP rules at all. They are used to make sure there is a constant supply of students. People are making money hand over fist. The rules say there should be escrow accounts for the handling of students' money. We have seen on more than one occasion that when the temptation grows too much and something happens, and moneys are misappropriated, there is very little recourse to justice for victims. Very often, they have to leave with their tail between their legs. What really suffers here is Ireland's reputation.

There is no follow-up. Nobody who oversees the whole situation and identifies that agencies are wrong and should not be there. There is no Department that is responsible.

Mr. Fiachra Ó Luain

We have asked QQI to include agents in what it is going to do. It has said that it will have powers to audit schools and make sure that the money is tracked. So far, however, we do not see any appetite on the part of the State to regulate agents or agencies. It has refused even to carry out an income-over-expenditure analysis, which is ridiculous.

I had not intended to come in, but I wish to ask one quick question. I welcome all our guests. This is a significant issue and one we need to pay close attention to. I am very grateful and apologise that I could not be here from the start. Following on from Deputy Pringle's questions and what Mr. Ó Luain was saying, is it primarily an issue of bad administration or is there some kind of fear that, were they to change their approach, it could interfere with the migration system? If Mr. Ó Luain was to try to get into the minds of the bureaucracy, what is the cause of the problems that exist?

Mr. Fiachra Ó Luain

My understanding is that when the Government does try to step in, very often it is threatened with lawsuits from the private English schools. They feel there is a God-given right to make profit from this sector. Since there are certain individuals who made X amount last year, they want to be able to hit that target and more this year and next year.

Forgive me, I was more thinking of the question of the right to work and the issue Mr. Ó Luain was speaking about a few minutes ago. What is the cause of the blockage there?

Mr. Fiachra Ó Luain

Basically, Ireland advertises itself as a country where you can come to study and work. The blockage seems to be that the applications take too long. If it was the case that IRPs could be issued for 12 months, as is the case in every other sector, that would at least free up some of that administrative backlog. Itzel has a YouTube channel with more than 20,000 followers. She has much more experience than me in some of the problems.

Ms Itzel Monserrat Martinez Murillo

I do not have the experience like Mr. Ó Luain said, but I have heard about many experiences from students through my channel. They talk about things like how they have to work many hours, but the Government just permits them to work 20 hours. They start working in other places to try to get the money but in those places, they are exploited. Many examples come to my mind such as work health issues. They are learning English as well. They cannot defend themselves if they have a problem or health issue when they need to find a job.

Mr. Jaime Nieto

Schools should be regulated in the context of the number of students they can bring over. They are just interesting in bringing over more and more students. They offer one week of accommodation with a host family and then they ask that student to leave so they can get a new one in place.

I thank the witnesses.

I would like to thank the witnesses for attending. The briefing has been informative and beneficial. It will add to the work we are doing here at the committee.

I thank Mr. Ó Luain and the students. The presentation was very much appreciated. We will adjourn for five minutes and then resume for our second session.

Sitting suspended at 12.10 p.m. and resumed at 12.17 p.m.

I would like to welcome from Marketing English in Ireland, MEI, Mr. Lorcan O'Connor Lloyd, chief executive officer; Mr. Mauro Biondi, chair of the MEI board of directors; and Mr. Aidan O’Shea, MEI director and chair of MEI’s quality assurance committee. I welcome also Ms Laura Harmon, executive director of the Irish Council for International Students, ICOS, and Mr. Brian Hearne, policy and communications manager at ICOS. The witnesses are here today in the committee's second session to discuss the need for greater regulation and oversight of the English language education sector.

I will invite Mr. O'Connor Lloyd and Ms Harmon to make a brief opening statement. This will be followed by questions from the committee members. Each member has a five-minute slot. The committee will publish the opening statements on the Oireachtas website following today's meeting.

Before we begin I remind witnesses of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, the witnesses will be directed by the Chair to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative the witnesses would comply with any such direction.

I invite Mr. O'Connor Lloyd, who has five minutes, followed by Ms Harmon.

Mr. Lorcan O'Connor Lloyd

I thank the committee for inviting Marketing English in Ireland, MEI, to take part in today’s session. I am pleased to be joined by Mauro Biondi, chair of the MEI board of directors and Aidan O’Shea, MEI director. We are very happy to have the opportunity to discuss the challenges relating to regulation and oversight of the English language education, ELE, sector and to highlight the many positive developments in the ELE industry in Ireland. In a highly competitive global marketplace, Ireland has earned a reputation as a premium, internationally respected, language learning destination. In 2023, the total number of students attending programmes at MEI schools was 128,397. Just over half of the total student population are junior students, which is students under the age of 18 attending summer camp programmes or school group educational tours. The remaining students are adult students on a variety of short- and long-term programmes, including general English, exam preparation, business English, teacher training and Erasmus+ funded courses. There is a diverse nationality mix at MEI member schools with more than 100 different countries represented. Last year 70% of our students came from the EU-EEA region and 30% came from non-EU-EEA countries.

According to the international education strategy review commissioned by the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science and published by Indecon in 2020, the ELE sector contributes more than €1 billion per year to the Irish economy.

MEI member schools, the majority of which are Irish founded and owed SMEs, employ 3,000 teachers and support staff during peak summer months, and 2,000 teachers and staff year-round. Given that English language schools operate from every county in Ireland, with many local tourism and hospitality businesses being supported by the sector, the economic benefits are distributed widely across the island of Ireland.

The ELE sector acts as a gateway for international students aspiring to pursue higher education in Ireland. Through immersive language programmes, students refine their English skills and gain insights into Irish society and academic opportunities. Many ELE providers offer tailored programmes and preparation courses for tertiary education and foster a seamless transition. By collaborating closely with Enterprise Ireland through the education in Ireland brand, the sector facilitates academic mobility and cultural exchange, enriching the educational landscape.

Quality assurance and the student experience are central to MEI’s objectives as an association. Historically, our members have engaged with the voluntary recognition scheme run by the Accreditation and Coordination of English Language Services, ACELS. Following several legal challenges regarding its validity as a statutory instrument, the ACELS accreditation scheme has remained closed to new applicants for more than a decade. ACELS is seen very much as a legacy function of Quality and Qualifications Ireland, QQI. The Qualifications and Quality Assurance (Education and Training) Act 2012 allows for the establishment of a new international education mark that will govern the ELE sector. In the interim, for the purposes of study visa controls the Department of Justice established in 2015 an interim list of eligible providers, ILEP.

In lieu of an active inspection and accreditation scheme, ELE providers have sought out validation from accreditation bodies and inspectors outside of Ireland, most notably through the Eaquals accreditation scheme for the evaluation and accreditation of quality language services, which is seen as the gold standard in language education. Eaquals accredited providers go through a comprehensive and rigorous quality assurance process, including an on-site inspection and a commitment to continuous improvement. There are only 125 Eaquals-approved providers worldwide and 22 of them are based in Ireland.

MEI has taken an active approach in promoting quality standards and student protections in the sector. The association is the umbrella body assigned to process Garda vetting applications for host families, teachers and junior school staff. We process more than 10,000 vetting applications per year. We also facilitate Children First child protection training for member and non-member institutions. MEI has operated a protection of the enrolled learner bonding scheme from 2012 to 2022 as a condition of membership, in which members agreed to accept students in the event of the closure of a fellow school. In July 2022 we launched an exclusive paid insurance scheme for our members through study and protect insurance, and it became a compulsory obligation of each member school to implement the study and protect insurance scheme for the protection of enrolled learners, PEL, or a product of similar or greater standard.

In the last 12 months, MEI has been engaged in a joint labour committee with SIPTU and Unite union representatives to review work and pay conditions for ELE staff. We look forward to continued discussions on protections for employees working in the sector.

Our members eagerly anticipate the initiation of the IEM process. As a network of educators we have long advocated for a more robust regulatory framework for the ELE sector. Through our quality assurance committee, MEI has been in consultation with QQI on international education mark, IEM, policy documents. MEI has also delivered a series of IEM-focused training sessions to support our members to prepare for the implementation of IEM regulations. We are encouraged by the progress made to date and will continue to support our members through the application and inspection process. We very much look forward to the launch of a high-quality internationally recognised accreditation mark. MEI member schools are committed to providing exceptional education experiences and look forward to continuing to contribute to the growth and success of Ireland’s international education sector.

I thank Mr. O'Connor Lloyd. I now invite Ms Harmon to make her opening remarks.

Ms Laura Harmon

On behalf of the Irish Council for International Students, I thank the committee for this opportunity to address members on the regulation of the English language education sector in Ireland. I am joined today by my colleague Mr. Brian Hearne, ICOS policy and communications manager. Mr. Hearne deals with many queries to ICOS directly from students. In the Public Gallery we are joined by Ms Maura Tangara and Ms Loreto Magana, members of our student advisory group which has informed this briefing.

ICOS is 52 years old. We have 26 institutional members. All of the universities and technological universities are members of ICOS, as are many of the independent third level colleges. The Union of Students in Ireland is also a member of ICOS and we have an independent student advisory group, which we set up last year, to inform our work.

It is fitting that we addressed this committee on this very topic ten years ago in June 2014. A lot of our recommendations are still relevant but, unfortunately, many of them have not yet been implemented. There, has, however, been much progress since then.

That is worth noting. The long-awaited implementation of the international education mark, IEM, represents a genuine opportunity for robust quality assurance to be at the forefront of education in Ireland. The ICOS hopes greater regulation of the sector will enhance Ireland’s reputation as a global study destination while safeguarding the interests of international students. According to the Indecon review of the last international education strategy, Ireland's international education sector is worth an estimated €2.3 billion to the Irish economy and the English language education sector is worth more than €1 billion in direct and indirect economic benefits. It is hugely important to the economy.

During the period 2014 to 2015, almost 20 private colleges and language schools ceased operating, leaving thousands of international students distressed and without the classes for which they had paid. The ICOS took a leading role at the time in assisting these affected students to support them and advise them on the legal processes, alternative provision and immigration matters. In response to this, the Department of Justice introduced the interim list of eligible programmes, ILEP, which aimed to tackle abuses of the immigration system, protect international students and ensure education providers meet minimum standards. While the ILEP was successful in cracking down on many rogue providers, since its introduction, five English language schools and several recruitment agencies have gone into liquidation. In all but one of these cases, students either lost money or were left without classes they should have received.

The most recent closure occurred in 2023 when a prominent school in Galway announced it would cease trading. This resulted in a surge of affected students and their agencies contacting us in the ICOS. Although most of the impacted students were provided with alternative classes or a partial refund, the ICOS is aware of more than a dozen students who were offered nothing. We have also seen evidence from several students who paid money to the school for learner protection that was never taken out for them, and it is our understanding the school continued to sell courses right up until it went into liquidation.

As the ILEP is difficult to understand and navigate, particularly if English is not your first language, international students turn to the ICOS for information and advice. Last year, the ICOS responded to 167 complaints from English language students about their English language schools. Examples of breaches of these complaints and breaches include unfair or harsh expulsions, where students were not given the benefit of the doubt; failure to refund a student following a visa refusal; failure to take out learner protection; failure to use an escrow account; questionable or non-transparent attendance practices; misleading information about studying and working in Ireland; and poor communication. Even the basic rules of the ILEP, such as the requirement for English language schools to display the timetables for programmes on their websites, are not being followed by all providers. The ICOS believes these breaches are a direct result of the current lack of oversight and enforcement of the regulations in the English language sector. This is emphasised by the fact that only three inspections of English language schools were carried out across the sector in 2023. We got this information from the response to a parliamentary question asked by Deputy Mairéad Farrell on our behalf recently.

The IEM proposes to strengthen the role of Qualifications and Quality Ireland, QQI, as a regulator in both the higher education and English language education sectors, and the ICOS welcomes this. We are encouraged to see that the experience of international students is central to the IEM and that there is an emphasis on student welfare. At present, however, little recourse is available to English language students who are unhappy with their English language school. When a dispute arises between a student and their school, there is often very little the student can do if the school refuses to engage with them and their education status can be put in jeopardy.

To summarise, the ICOS acknowledges that there are many English language schools in Ireland offering high-quality classes to their students. What these schools are providing is an essential element of our economy. We also know, however, that some schools breach the rules and there is a lack of oversight and enforcement. Our recommendations include the need for there to be a robust external monitoring, inspection and enforcement system to oversee the implementation of the IEM; the need to establish an independent ombudsman for the sector; the need for an awareness-raising campaign about the IEM that is directed towards international students and other key stakeholders; and that English language schools should need to provide clear details on their websites about the student recruitment agencies they work with.

I look forward to any questions and thank the committee very much.

I thank Ms Harmon. I call Senator Mullen.

I do not have many questions to ask. I welcome the witnesses. To ask a general question, what are seen as the biggest challenges facing the sector? I direct this first to Mr. O'Connor Lloyd, Mr. O'Shea or Mr. Biondi.

Mr. Aidan O'Shea

From a trading point of view, we recovered very well from the pandemic period. The industry as a whole, including most schools, has returned to pre-pandemic numbers. Being the industry we are, we are very exposed to geopolitical forces, whether these concern immigration changes, currency changes and so on. Even this year alone, we have seen certain markets that would have been performing well now no longer being available to us due to changes in economic circumstances on the ground, visa requirements through embassies, etc. Many members talk about the technological issue. There have been significant advances in everything from machine learning to AI and so on, and this is going to change the industry immensely in the next five to ten years.

In the immediate period, increased costs this year have certainly had an impact on our members. There has also been the challenge of meeting the demand we have seen from younger students, who are now arriving in with English language skills at higher levels than 15 or 20 years ago. The average teenager arriving in Ireland 20 years ago was coming at CEFR A2 to B1 levels, so at elementary and pre-intermediate levels. These students are now coming in at higher levels, so in the long term the types of programmes we will be delivering will see us move away from general English to more specific life skills, soft skills, leadership skills and so on. We are having to adapt our programmes to meet the demands of younger students coming in. Every year, we are looking at how this impacts our programmes, recruitment, assessment and so on. These are the immediate challenges for the industry.

The accommodation crisis in the country generally is coming in at different levels and impacting different people in different ways in terms of housing, etc. Presumably, there is a knock-on impact as well in terms of the availability of accommodation for students coming into the country and the cost of it.

Mr. Aidan O'Shea

Yes. We looked at this situation from pre-pandemic to post-pandemic. MEI member schools worked with approximately 10,000 host families across the country. This dropped to just over 4,000 once we reopened. There was a myriad of reasons for this change, including people no longer looking to host because of close contact and older host families no longer perhaps being comfortable hosting, adult children who should have moved out now living at home, meaning the spare bedroom that would have been for language students is no longer there and young families not moving into their own homes and, therefore, not hosting students. The numbers in this regard are increasing but they are not back to where they were. In response to this development, many of our members have taken on extra accommodation, including purpose-built student accommodation that has cropped up in Dublin and elsewhere in Ireland in the past couple of years. It is expensive. Compared with tertiary education, we sell many more packages that include accommodation. This includes students who are staying for one or two weeks. The average length of stay in Ireland for an English language student is just over five weeks.

Mr. Aidan O'Shea

The vast majority of our students book accommodation with us.

I am sorry to interrupt, but I am conscious of the time and I want to direct a question to Ms Harmon as well. How is this accommodation requirement managed in the context of children who are under 18? I would have thought the only safe way to host them would be in families. If there has been a decrease in the number of host families, is this creating a problem?

Mr. Mauro Biondi

Fortunately, most of the junior programmes happen during the summer and so we avail of the residential accommodation provided by the colleges. This is fantastic because it is a different type of programme. A residential programme and course has its own characteristics. It is possible to provide a programme that attracts a certain type of student, especially for those undertaking the integrated language learning that Mr. O'Shea spoke of. It also compensates for the shortage of host families. The point Mr. O'Shea was making is very important, however. The language schools will have students accommodated before they arrive 99% of the time.

I thank Mr. Biondi. Turning to Ms Harmon, she mentioned several recommendations have not been followed up on. This business where students get caught when a company folds or whatever, is this a problem that may continue happening? If so, are there mechanisms the ICOS can think of or that it would like to see introduced in this regard?

For example, perhaps we could introduce some kind of an insurance bond that a prospective student would pay and that would be received by a third party as a kind of insurance guarantee so that if their fees are lost in the process, at least there would be a refund. Is there something more that can be done in that area?

Ms Laura Harmon

There absolutely is. Escrow accounts need to be used. Many providers have not been using them.

It is the language providers who have to maintain those escrow accounts.

Ms Laura Harmon

Yes. My colleague Mr. Hearne may wish to come in.

Mr. Brian Hearne

As we see it, there is currently a lack of oversight in respect of the monitoring for compliance with the ILEP regulations. We want the IEM to have these monitoring and oversight systems in place to ensure that from the moment people pay their course fees, the money is secure. What we found with many of the school closures that have occurred in recent years is that the international students who arrive in Ireland have been covered by learner protection and have been able to complete their courses at a different English language school. The people who have not been able to come here for one reason or another, perhaps because their visa has been refused, have more often than not been left with nothing. They have not been allowed to study here because they have been refused a visa and have not been able to get their course fees returned.

Is Mr. Hearne suggesting it is easier to provide something in kind than it is to refund the money? Is that what he means about getting people onto another course?

Mr. Brian Hearne

The premise behind escrow accounts is that any money people pay for a course is secure while they are going through the visa process. In the event that they are refused a visa, the money should go back to them. What we have seen through our advocacy work as school closures have occurred and people have contacted us is that it is not happening, the money is not being placed into an escrow account and the students who were refused visas have not got their money back. In cases where schools have closed down, those people have been left with nothing.

I thank our guests for their presentation. The Irish Council for International Students made a presentation in the AV room and it does incredible work to try to raise this issue. My first question is about the lack inspections of schools that Mr. Ó Luain mentioned. Why is there light-touch regulation?

Ms Laura Harmon

It is really a lack of enforcement. The sector in general has not been prioritised over the years. A lot of prominence is often put on the higher education sector and perhaps more focus needs to be put on this sector with more monitoring and evaluation. If it is up to the schools alone, it would not be good practice to have self-evaluation. There is a need for an external piece and that is why we are calling for more exploration to look at that and to consider the option of, for example, an external ombudsman.

Having said that, there are many fantastic reasons why students come to Ireland to study English, including the culture and the quality of education. There are numerous reasons that we are a very popular destination, and rightly so. Our main concern in ICIS is to ensure that reputation is maintained.

A point was made about the risks for the sector, and accommodation is certainly one. There is overcrowding among students who are studying here and who must share rooms. That is very prevalent for the English-language students to whom we have spoken and surveyed in our annual surveys. There are also accommodation scams. We heard earlier from students about the limits on working hours when the cost of living is an enormous issue.

As I said, we addressed this committee ten years ago and many of the issues remain the same. There is a need for more oversight, regulation and monitoring. We have open dialogue with MEI and have met its representatives numerous times. It is important to say there is a relationship there and we would love to work further with MEI on this. I do not know if my colleague, Mr. Hearne, has anything to add in response to the Deputy's question.

Mr. Brian Hearne

ILEP, in its current form, is very confusing and difficult to navigate, particularly for people for whom English is not their first language. The IEM, when it is introduced, needs to be clearly understood by education providers and international students. I echo what my colleague Ms Harmon said. If the rules are not being complied with, how do we know that the English-language schools are going to comply with the regulations when the IEM is introduced?

Mr. Hearne mentioned self-assessment and monitoring. We have seen in many sectors that self-regulation can, unfortunately, often lead to no regulation. I am not saying that is the case in this sector but one would obviously have a concern. Instead of such a system, what are our guests saying needs to be done, how and by whom, to ensure there is regulation? If they had three buzzwords to share or points to make, what would they be?

Ms Laura Harmon

The key thing is that an independent and external body regulates the sector. We need it to be frequent. Three inspections last year is not a lot. Those would be two of the key things we would suggest. Perhaps Mr. Hearne has something further to add.

Mr. Brian Hearne

I echo those points. We would like to see more inspections being carried out at the very least. There needs to be monitoring and enforcement of the regulations. We have heard that many international schools here offer quality classes but a small minority of schools are not offering the type of service they should be offering to their students. We want to ensure that the people who come here to study have a good experience, are offered a quality education and get what they pay for.

That is fair. Ms Harmon said the industry is worth €1 billion. What are our guests' fears in respect of the long-term impact if the situation continues as it is at the moment and if something is not done? We have heard so clearly about the real-life impact these issues have on people and the thousands of euro they save and lose through scams and all of that. The real-life impact is most devastating. What do our guests think would be the long-term impact?

Ms Laura Harmon

The reputation of Ireland is key and we want to maintain our reputation as a quality destination for study. The sector is also important to the economy. The committee heard from students earlier and many of them are working in hospitality as delivery drivers or work as carers. They are performing an essential function in keeping our economy going. We really need this sector to work well. We need it to be high quality and to provide a good student experience. We need to uphold standards. It is a critical and timely discussion we are having.

Mr. Mauro Biondi

The introduction of the IEM is something that we are really looking forward to. It is important for the sector. It is something in which we in MEI have been actively involved. It will answer many of the questions that have emerged so far. Mr. O'Connor mentioned earlier there our colleagues in MEI have been conducting training in recent months to prepare providers for the IEM. We have been pleasantly surprised by the number of organisations or providers that have already expressed an interest in joining the IEM.

On the other side, it is true that a lack of inspection does not help anybody. We could not agree more. However, it is true for us, as providers, that many organisations in Ireland have looked for external accreditation. Many of us are members of international organisations and have inspections every few months but, unfortunately, those are not carried out by the IEM or QQI. We are definitely looking forward to that.

I thank our guests for being here.

Reading their statements was interesting. Some 150,000 students have come to Ireland for this and it is worth €2.38 billion to the economy. The witnesses are right, though, as Ireland's reputation as a provider of a good experience, including a good educational experience, is also important. I hope that the IEM scheme will be significant, given previous negative experiences. There are some concerns about it, but it will be important to the sector. Do Mr. O'Shea, Mr. Biondi and Mr. O'Connor Lloyd feel that many of their organisation's members will apply for the mark? If not, why would that be the case? It is better for Ireland's reputation as a provider of such education that everyone sign up to it.

I am interested in knowing how MEI co-ordinates with Departments and State agencies, particularly on visas and so on. Ms Harmon raised the point about fees not being returned to students because they could not get visas. That is a concern. The representatives from MEI might reply before I turn to Ms Harmon.

Mr. Lorcan O'Connor Lloyd

Regarding engagement on the IEM, we surveyed our members recently. There are 64 of them, located all over the country. It is important to note that there is a diverse profile of school types. Many of the schools in the large cities offer year-round adult learning but might also have seasonal camps and take educational tour groups, meaning they are junior and adult. However, many of the schools outside the big cities are more seasonal businesses focused on junior learners only. Aside from a thirst for quality, accreditation and so on, one of the carrots with the IEM is being able to access the visa markets. Eventually, the ILEP will be phased out and schools will need to have the IEM accreditation mark to access visa students. If a school does not rely on those students and is just EU business and juniors, though, it does not necessarily need to opt for the IEM. I had a meeting with ICOS recently to discuss the potential pitfalls in that regard to ensure that the junior market would be protected and its students would get a quality service and to encourage as many members as possible to go for the IEM.

Of our 64 members, 50 have decided to go for the IEM this year. Another ten fall into the junior field and are humming and hawing. The remaining four have decided that their business profiles do not fit the IEM, so they will not go for it. Fifty are going for it this year and ten have earmarked it for one of the further cycles.

Ms Harmon welcomed the IEM scheme but had some reservations about the monitoring and enforcement framework. I would be inclined to agree with her in that regard. Unfortunately, we have seen exploitation. Undoubtedly, the vast majority of the companies are excellent, but there will always be those that are not. It has been mentioned that the two organisations before us meet often. Have they discussed the type of implementation and monitoring framework they would like to see? Having some agreed ground in that regard would be important.

Unfair or harsh expulsions were mentioned and I have referred to non-refunds. Does Ms Harmon believe that there should be agreed criteria as regards the types of behaviour that would warrant expulsions, suspensions and lesser punishments?

What impacts are there on those who work while they study?

Ms Laura Harmon

I will defer to my colleague in a moment, but we look forward to engaging further with MEI in our dialogue on this matter. We made submissions to QQI on the IEM and it is great to hear that there is a good uptake of it by providers. It should be an added-value factor for them, in that, when students select where to go, they should look for this mark and it should be promoted to them as a quality mark. Having it should be advantageous for the schools.

There should be clarity around issues like expulsion and what is expected of students in terms of attendance, for example. I will pass over to Mr. Hearne. He deals directly with queries from students, so he might have some insight into this matter.

Mr. Brian Hearne

It is important to note that ICOS focuses on adult and adolescent education. MEI just referenced junior international students, but we do not have many dealings with minors who come here to study.

Regarding unfair or harsh expulsions, these could come down to miscommunications between students and their schools or to issues that could have been addressed earlier by the schools but were not. There can be harsh interpretations of the ILEP. Something we have noticed is that certain providers use the ILEP as a means of implementing harsh rules and regulations, allowing them to expel students early in their courses and free up space. We hope that the IEM will cut out that sort of behaviour.

We are happy to hear that MEI wants regulations or inspections to be put in place. As to who will carry out those inspections, we would like to see QQI taking the lead. If not QQI, it needs to be an independent body. Either way, there needs to be consistency, as the IEM refers to schools having a third-party mediator in cases where issues that cannot otherwise be resolved arise between them and students. However, no details are given as to who that mediator would be. Given that there are many English language schools in Ireland, a consistent and fair approach should be applied via a specific independent ombudsman who would oversee complaints.

I thank the witnesses.

I thank our guests for presenting their evidence. I will ask a couple of questions. EEA students have the ability to work at any time of the day or night while in Ireland in order to support their studies, but students from outside the EEA are restricted to morning or afternoon work. While the witnesses are not the ones who decide this, what are their views on the matter? Should students from outside the EEA not be able to work in the evening or study in the evening and work during the day?

Mr. Aidan O'Shea

Regardless of when their courses run, people on stamp 2 visas can work 40 hours per week from June to September, inclusive, and from 15 December to 15 January. At all other times of the year, they are allowed to work 20 hours per week. It does not matter when their courses start or whether they are on one-week, ten-week or 25-week courses. MEI member schools run rolling enrolments, so we have students joining us on 50 Mondays of the year.

This system was implemented with the ILEP in 2015. Before that, it was a 12-month visa rather than an eight-month one and the work was linked to when students were on vacation.

It never made sense that a person could technically study full-time for 15 hours a week and work full-time for 40 hours a week. This was brought in at the time because it mirrored the third level academic year, but it did not make sense for rolling enrolment.

Another issue is that we are limited to students having courses from 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. Monday to Friday. Previously, they had the ability to work in the evenings. At the time, we spoke to ACELS and informed that courses could not finish at 5.15 p.m.; they had to be finished by 5 p.m. It was a very rigid system. As stated, students were previously able to work in the evenings. From a school point of view, we would welcome the ability to add a third session to the day. At the moment, we can only offer classes in the mornings and afternoons.

The current system of limiting it to certain times of the year does not make sense, particularly for students. Many arrive in the September-October period to start 25-week courses. For the first six months they are limited to 20 hours a week. We felt at the time that it was a strange decision to limit the full working rights to just a very specific summer period.

The MEI has no problem with a change.

Mr. Aidan O'Shea

In light of the way the IEM is looking as regards timetables at present, it does not seem that is going to change. It looks like it will be 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. Monday to Friday, work rights will remain as they are and it will continue to the an eight-month as opposed to, as was previously the case, a 12-month visa. Reducing the period of the visa from 12 months to eight was something we fought against because we are up against other English-language-speaking countries such as Canada, the US, the UK, etc., which offer 12-month visas. If this change could be rowed back on, we would certainly welcome it because it would give ourselves and the students more flexibility with timetables.

Earlier, we heard about the use of agents to collect fees. How does Mr. O'Shea view the use of agents? Does he recommend agents to MEI members? Could the use of agents cause problems for students?

Mr. Aidan O'Shea

It is covered in the new IEM legislation. Schools will have to sign up to the London statement, which was introduced in 2012 and which contains seven principles relating to transparency, ethical recruitment, etc. Every school uses a different percentage of agents than others. Agents are a big part of the industry. Many of us have worked with trusted partners for ten, 20 or 30 years. For others, we go direct to the market. Where students contacted us directly, in certain cases we advised them to work with a partner agency, particularly if they are navigating a tricky visa application. It is for each school to make sure to vet. Even within the MEI, we vet our agents. We get references from our agents. We speak with each other to see have agents sent on business, are they reliable and are their students well informed. I think that will even be enhanced with the IEM where we all have to sign up to the London statement.

When will the IEM be implemented?

Mr. Aidan O'Shea

That is the $64,000 question. As matters stand, some legislative issues must be signed off by the solicitors working for the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science. We still do not know the application fees or what the protection for enrolled learners fee will be, and there are still some regulations to be dealt with. We hope that applications will open in September. As Mr. O'Connor stated, expressions of interest have been made by members. We hope that the application portal will open in September. This would mean that the first batch of schools would hopefully be through by the middle of next year. That is the current timeline but we await some statutory legislation to be signed off and for lawyers to finalise fees.

Earlier, we heard from ELSU about a meeting that it and the MEI had with the Minister at the time - the current Taoiseach. It was explained to him that the schools were going to reopen after Covid with existing students. When they did reopen, however, new students were mixed in existing students. Was that good practice? Did it happen?

Mr. Aidan O'Shea

No. I recall that it was a frustrating time for us because we had many requests for students to travel. At the time, people could travel to this country, with the restrictions as they were, but they could not come to classes.

We were allowed to reopen with students who had been studying online and they could come into classes with the 2-metre restrictions at the time. So instead of 15 students per class there were only four or five students. In September 2021, we were allowed a full reopening whereby we were then allowed to recruit students from abroad. I remember well speaking to fellow schools and members at the time about the frustration for us of seeing tourists come into the country, play golf, go to hotels and do other activities but they could not come in and study the English language. We were restricted to just offering classes to students who had been studying online and were based in Ireland coming into classes. Months later, in September 2021, we were allowed to recruit new students.

So new students were not recruited at that time.

Mr. Aidan O'Shea

No. We were not able to take bookings or new students.

Earlier we heard about the discussions between SIPTU, Unite the union and MEI on remuneration for teachers, etc. How is that coming along and when is it likely it will be completed?

Mr. Lorcan O'Connor Lloyd

What ignited this, which ICOS representatives talked about earlier, was schools closing down during the period 2015 to 2019. One particular school closed in December 2018 and the staff had not been paid their wages. After that, an inquiry was set up and eventually a JLC was established. Due to Covid and backlogs in the Labour Court, the JLC did not have its first meeting until last summer, which meant there was nearly a four-year delay before establishment and the first meeting of the JLC. Momentum has built up. We met a couple of weeks ago and we have a meeting next week. Without discussing too much about what is going on in the Labour Court, the conversation is moving along progressively and we would be hopeful of an agreement pretty soon.

Is that in the next couple of months or the next couple of years?

Mr. Lorcan O'Connor Lloyd

It is not something we want hanging over us forever. We want to get a deal done. Certainly there is a framework for agreement and we hope something will get done in the next couple of months.

I thank the witnesses for coming here. We have had a very productive discussion in sessions 1 and 2. I thank the witnesses for their replies to members and this work is ongoing. The meeting is adjourned until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 21 May 2024, when we will resume in public session.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.03 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 21 May 2024.
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