Joint Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 20 Mar 2024

Support for Development of Regional Film and Television Production: Discussion

An Cathaoirleach

The committee is meeting with officials from the Departments of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media and Finance, in addition to representatives from Screen Ireland, Coimisiún na Meán, RTÉ and TG4, to discuss support for the development of regional film and TV production. I warmly welcome the witnesses to committee room 4. We have a full house and it is lovely to have them all with us. I welcome Ms Mary Nash, principal officer, from the arts, film and investment unit at the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media; Mr. Rónán Ó Domhnaill, media development commissioner, and Ms Sinéad Crowley, director of media development, at Coimisiún na Meán; Ms Désirée Finnegan, CEO, and Ms Libbie McQuillan, director of industry and corporate affairs, at Screen Ireland; Mr. Dermot Horan, director of acquisitions and co-productions, and Ms Vivienne Flood, head of public affairs, at RTÉ; Mr. Alan Esslemont, director general, and Ms Lís Ní Dhálaigh, director of marketing, development and partnerships, at TG4; and Ms Deirdre Donaghy, principal officer, and Mr. Ian Kavanagh, assistant principal officer, from the business tax unit at the Department of Finance.

The format of today's meeting is such that I will invite witnesses to deliver their opening statements, which are limited to three minutes each.

That will be followed by questions from my colleagues on the committee. As members are aware, the committee may publish opening statements and briefing documentation on its website.

Deputy Munster is joining us via Microsoft Teams. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Before we proceed, I wish to explain some limitations on parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references that may be made to other persons in evidence. The evidence of witnesses who are physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. Witnesses are again reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against a person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of that person or entity. Therefore, if your statements are potentially defamatory in relation to any identifiable person or entity, you will be directed to discontinue your remarks.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I again remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of Leinster House to participate in the public meeting.

I propose that we proceed to the opening statements. I have received apologies from Deputy Alan Dillon, which is noted. The order of speakers will be Ms Nash, Mr. Ó Domhnaill, Ms Finnegan, Mr. Horan, Mr. Esslemont and Mr. Kavanagh. I ask to be excused as I must attend to business outside the meeting. I will not be long. In my absence, I ask Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan to take the Chair.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan took the Chair.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan)

I call Ms Mary Nash from the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media to give her opening statement.

Ms Mary Nash

On behalf of the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport & Media, I thank the committee for today’s invitation. I am a principal officer in the arts, film and investment unit of the Department. The Department welcomes the opportunity to discuss supports for the development of regional film and TV production.

Government support for the audiovisual industry in Ireland is a two-pronged approach, involving direct grants to the Irish screen industry and screen industry professionals and section 481 tax relief. Screen Ireland is under the aegis of the Department and is the State body with responsibility for developing the audiovisual industry in Ireland. It makes funding available to audiovisual projects. Over the past five years, Screen Ireland’s funding has almost doubled from €20 million in 2019 to more than €39 million this year. Members will hear from Screen Ireland separately. While the Minister for Finance is responsible under legislation for section 481 tax relief, applications for the relief are made to my unit in the Department. On receipt of a successful application, a section 481 certificate is issued that allows a film project to claim a tax relief of 32% of eligible expenditure from the Revenue Commissioners, subject to a cap. As the majority of filming activity is concentrated in the Dublin and Wicklow region, a regional uplift of a tapering rate of 37% to 34% was made available in the regions for a five-year period up to and including 2023. This was in order to build a skilled workforce outside Dublin and Wicklow. Members will be familiar with many films that were made in the regions over the past five years. The regional uplift allowed a blossoming of film and TV drama in the regions. Much of this was attributed to the section 481 regional uplift. Officials from the Department of Finance will speak later.

In the 2022-23 period, the Department issued a total of 436 certificates that allowed indigenous and incoming productions to claim section 481 relief. Of those 436 certificates, 17.4% or 76 in number were for regional uplift projects. Of those, 15 were feature films, 23 were television dramas, and 38 were animations and creative documentaries. As a result, many counties outside of the traditional hubs of Dublin and Wicklow benefited from the additional regional uplift and the associated economic activity. Ireland’s recent success at the Oscars has shown how all the measures taken by the Government in recent years have made a real impact in establishing the credibility of Ireland’s screen industry abroad. The Department has provided some additional briefing to the committee. While this opening statement touches only briefly on the industry, I am happy to take questions from the committee.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan)

We will proceed now to Mr. Ó Domhnaill, who is the media development commissioner.

Mr. Rónán Ó Domhnaill

Gabhaim féin agus mo chomhghleacaí, stiúrthóir forbartha na meán, Sinéad Crowley, buíochas le baill an choiste as an gcuireadh labhairt leo inniu ar an ábhar seo atá tábhachtach don sochaí, don earnáil teilifíse, scannánaíochta agus raidió, don chultúr, d’fhorbairt na tuaithe agus d’obair Choimisiún na Meán. Mar thús níor mhiste liom b’fhéidir beagán cur síos a dhéanamh ar Choimisiún na Meán, a bunaíodh i mí an Mhárta anuraidh agus a tháinig i gcomharbacht ar Údarás Craolacháin na hÉireann, nó an BAI. Coimisiún na Meán was born with an expanded remit that covers the regulation of broadcasters and online media and supporting media development. We believe that how Ireland, our culture, our heritage and our communities are represented on screen matters. An coimisiún recognises the potential of film and television productions to local communities. Throughout Ireland, communities are rightly proud to see their towns and villages on the small or big screen. Economically, film and television productions also bring the potential for enhanced tourism, local employment and creative opportunities to regional cities, towns and villages.

Supporting the development of the wider media sector through sectoral learning and development initiatives, funding schemes including the sound and vision scheme, and activities to promote the Irish language and equality, diversity and inclusion in the media sector is core to my work as media development commissioner. An coimisiún supports television and film production in a range of ways. Recently, we announced funding of almost €800,000 under our sectoral learning and development programme and sponsorship scheme. These programmes deliver specific training needs and supports for the audiovisual sector. Some examples include the Catalyst International Film Festival in Limerick city; the Dingle Animation Festival in County Kerry; the FÍS TV summit in Galway city, and the Community Television Association which has bases in counties Leitrim and Cork as well as in Belfast. Chomh maith le sin, d’fhógair muid roinnt babhtaí maoinithe faoin scéim Glúin Nua i gcomhpháirtíocht le TG4, Údarás na Gaeltachta agus Gréasán na Meán. Thacaigh sé seo le scríbhneoirí agus léiritheoirí a bhí ag obair as Gaeilge barr feabhais a chuir ar a gcuid scileanna. Is cúis mhór mórtais agus áthais é dúinn a bheith in ann tacú leis na meáin Ghaeilge mar chuid dár gcuid oibre.

Separately, the sound and vision scheme has made an invaluable contribution to film and television production in Ireland and boasts two Oscar-nominated films among its recipients, "The Secret of Kells" in 2009 and "An Cailín Ciúin" in 2022. In total, more than €63 million has been provided to high-quality Irish television and radio productions under the sound and vision scheme, which includes productions throughout the regions. An important element of that scheme is that it supports culturally valuable programming which in many cases may not otherwise be made. A key consideration when awarding funding is the extent to which a proposed production provides an opportunity for new talent and skills development. The development of a strong media landscape is not an ambition that an coimisiún pursues alone. It is important to recognise the support of the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media, having recently provided additional funding for a number of sound and vision rounds. We also benefit from collaboration with a range of stakeholders including Fís Éireann, the independent production sector and broadcasters working together to support and advocate for initiatives that help to develop the industry countrywide. Guím gach rath ar obair an choiste seo agus táim ag tnúth go mór an deis a fháil aon cheisteanna atá agaibh a fhreagairt.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan)

We will now proceed with Ms Désirée Finnegan, who is the CEO of Screen Ireland.

Ms Désirée Finnegan

I thank the Cathaoirleach and the committee for inviting us here today. Fís Éireann, or Screen Ireland, is the national development agency for the feature film, television, animation, documentary, visual effects and games industry, supporting the expression of Irish culture on screen.

The Irish screen industry has achieved extraordinary global acclaim in recent years, with particular recognition for Irish artists on the world stage. Irish cinema and TV drama have reached historic milestones and broken records, both cultural and economic. These successes are about individual talent and the collective work of a highly skilled creative industry. It is part of a long-term strategic vision led by sustained investment in Irish filmmakers and artists over many decades.

Screen Ireland’s ambition is that the creative, cultural and economic benefits of this sector can be experienced right across the country. Screen Ireland has always championed a dual approach to industry development, balancing local Irish filmmaking and inward international production. Attracting large-scale international projects to Ireland generates significant spend in the Irish economy, creates employment opportunities and world-class skills development alongside ensuring strong levels of investment in Irish stories on screen and projects that are creatively led by Irish artists.

To support future industry growth, a key policy priority is to expand beyond existing metrocentric production zones and build permanent and skilled local crew bases in hubs nationwide. This objective gained significant momentum with the introduction of the regional uplift in 2019. In the period when the uplift was at its highest, there was a significant increase in large-scale production activity nationwide with major studios and international partners. This set into motion a hugely positive perspective change for our industry, underscoring the impact of a targeted fiscal incentive and the value of a holistic nationwide approach.

Screen Ireland’s support for nationwide development also expanded during this time. In 2019, Ireland was one of the first countries in Europe to link its filming tax credit to skills development. In 2020, the national talent academies network was established, with three crew hubs based in the west, east and south of the country. In 2023, Screen Ireland invested more than €5 million in projects, initiatives and activities that supported nationwide development.

A considered and co-ordinated long-term nationwide strategy is necessary for sustainable economic growth, building local cultural infrastructure, centres of excellence and supporting sustainable local production companies to develop culturally diverse stories on screen. Screen Ireland is committed to working closely with all stakeholders and international partners to ensure Ireland continues its remarkable trajectory as a global production hub and a place where Irish storytelling from across the country can thrive.

We appreciate the committee members inviting us here today and look forward to answering any questions they might have.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan)

I thank Ms Finnegan. We will move on to Mr. Horan of RTÉ.

Mr. Dermot Horan

I thank the Cathaoirleach and members for the invitation to discuss today the future development of regional film and television production. RTÉ is committed to programming made in the regions. It forms part of our public service remit, serves our audiences, and has been called out as one of the four new key pillars in our new strategy framework. We already have significant production bases for both television and radio in Cork, Limerick and Casla. In recent years we have seen our spend with the independent sector grow outside of Dublin, from 25% in 2021 to 41% in 2023, and our stated ambition is to grow our footprint significantly in the regions.

A key point to note is that films and TV series made in the regions work. They work with both Irish and international audiences. For feature films and drama series, the location becomes a character in its own right. Recent examples of dramas commissioned by RTÉ in the regions include "Obituary", "Smother", "Hidden Assets", "North Sea Connection" and most recently "Blackshore". These productions employ significant numbers of highly skilled people over long periods. A typical six-part drama series would film in a location for at least three months, and for that period may well be the biggest employer in the town. A recent example would be "Obituary", made by Galway-based Magamedia and shot in Ballyshannon, which is currently in pre-production for a second series.

Irish audiences want to see their entire country reflected in the programmes they watch, and international audiences love to see the unique backdrop that is rural Ireland. Irish dramas are now selling all over the world. "Smother", set in Lahinch, has been seen in more than 160 countries, which means the beauty of the Burren and its unique landscape is being seen worldwide.

The regional section 481 uplift and the WRAP fund have been used in the majority of cases of these regionally based dramas and were essential in putting the finance plans together. The Irish media sector has to compete with all sorts of other tax reliefs, as well as national and regional funds that are available to producers. The recent UK budget announced an enhanced tax support, the independent film tax credit. It offers at a rate of 53% of qualifying expenditure, which equates to around 40% in relief. This is well above the Irish rate and is from a country with a rich audiovisual heritage. This will put further pressure on both inward and indigenous productions, with a potential migration of production to Northern Ireland and other parts of the UK.

Feature films and drama series are very expensive to produce. The more local funding the producer can generate, the easier it is to find the balance internationally. Thus, a long-term established tax relief, enhanced for regionally-based productions, together with support from Screen Ireland and broadcasters, is essential in order to green-light high-end programming. It will also give the production companies the best possible chance to retain the intellectual property rights in their product, which will allow those companies to grow, employ more staff and develop more programming, leading to a much more sustainable audiovisual sector in Ireland.

In the coming weeks, RTÉ will be finalising its statement of strategy. Greater levels of investment with the independent sector is a clear priority. Through the lifetime of the strategy, we hope to restore our investment to at least €70 million per annum by 2029, depending on public funding being resolved.

As members are aware, recent creations by Irish filmmakers have attracted international recognition and acclaim. This is a sector that is poised for development and growth, and RTÉ is ready to play its role in this with our sectoral partners here today. It is, therefore, timely that due consideration is given as to what policy measures would enable its full potential to be reached. We look forward to the discussion ahead on how best to achieve that.

Deputy Niamh Smyth resumed the Chair.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Horan and call Mr. Esslemont of TG4.

Mr. Alan Esslemont

Is é TG4 phríomh-mhaoinitheoir na hearnála scáileáin i réigiúin na hÉireann i gcomhlachtaí Éireannacha atá lonnaithe taobh amuigh de Bhaile Átha Cliath agus Chill Mhantáin. Tá an infheistíocht seo ina thiománaí forbartha san eacnamaíocht chruthaitheach réigiúnach, a leagannn síos bonn láidir don nuálaíocht dhigiteach agus theicniúil. D’fhéadfadh eacnamaíocht chruthaitheach agus chultúrtha rathúil i réigiúin na hÉireann íomhá na réigiún a athrú ó bhonn. Is féidir leis an tionscal cruthaitheach closamhairc tionchar a imirt ar thurasóireacht, na healaíona, cultúr, spórt agus an Ghaeilge agus iad a threisiú, chomh maith le cur leis na tionscail chruthaitheacha trí clusters agus comhshuíomh.

Chomh maith le toradh cruthaitheach agus eacnamaíoch ar infheistíocht TG4, tá toradh teanga le fáil ar an infheistíocht freisin. Tugaimid linguistic return on investment air sin. Déanann TG4 infheistíocht ar 80% dá caiteachas léiriúcháin ar chomhlachtaí atá lonnaithe taobh amuigh de Bhaile Átha Cliath agus 70% ar chomhlachtaí atá i gceantair Gaeltachta.

Molann TG4 na deontais "nationwide" réigiúnacha atá tugtha isteach ag Fís Éireann ach tá na buntáistí céanna ar fáil do chomhlachtaí atá bunaithe taobh istigh de 65 km ó Shráid Uí Chonaill agus atá ag an chuid atá bunaithe taobh amuigh den limistéar sin. Mar sin, tá ardú réigiúnach ag teastáil ar alt 481. I gcomhthéacs na Straitéise 20 Bliain don Ghaeilge 2010-2030, creideann TG4 go bhfuil deis ann ardú Gaeltachta ar alt 481 a thabhairt isteach do chomhlachtaí atá lonnaithe i nGaeltacht na hÉireann, agus tá mioneolas ar an moladh seo le fáil mar cheangaltán leis an ráiteas tosaigh seo.

Creideann TG4 freisin go bhfuil tábhacht faoi leith maidir le tallann nua a fhorbairt sna réigiúin. Tá scéimeanna rathúla forbartha againn le hÚdarás na Gaeltachta, le intéirnigh bliana, atá bunaithe ar shaineolas Northern Ireland Screen sa réimse seo, agus tá breis is 70 duine tagtha tríd na scéimeanna intéirnigh ó 2018. Tá deis ann dlús a chuir leis an bhforbairt tallainne sa Ghaeltacht agus moladh againn straitéis aontaithe idir TG4, Údarás na Gaeltachta agus Screen Ireland leis seo a bhaint amach.

Mar chlabhsúr, ba mhaith le TG4 díriú ar an trí sprioc seo a leanas a chuirfeadh borradh breise faoi an earnáil closamhairc sna réigiúin seo: scála maoinithe TG4 a mhéadú le tacú le straitéis TG4 agus infheistíocht TG4 san earnáil léirithe a mhéadú; ardú Gaeltachta a thabhairt chun cinn faoi alt 481; agus straitéis páirtíochta idir TG4, Fís Éireann agus Údarás na Gaeltachta le dlús a chur le forbairt na h-earnála closamhairc Gaeltachta agus Gaeilge.

Gabhaim buíochas le baill an choiste as éisteacht leis an ráiteas tosaigh seo i nGaeilge agus cuirfidh muid fáilte roimh cheisteanna i nGaeilge agus i mBéarla.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Esslemont. I now call on Mr. Kavanagh.

Mr. Ian Kavanagh

I am an assistant principal officer in the Department of Finance, with responsibility for the section 481 film tax credit. I am joined online by my colleague, Ms Donaghy, who is a principal officer in the Department and responsible for business tax, which includes the section 481 tax credit. On behalf of the Department of Finance, I thank the committee for its invitation to discuss supports for the development of regional film and TV production. As the remit of the Department of Finance on this matter is limited to the film tax credit, the support offered to the industry through the credit will be the focus of my opening statement.

The policy rationale underpinning the section 481 tax credit is that it intended to act as a stimulus to the creation of an indigenous film industry in the State, creating quality employment opportunities and supporting the expression of Irish and European culture. The credit provides relief in the form of a corporation tax credit related to qualifying costs of production of certain films. The credit is currently granted at a rate of 32% of up to €70 million. Committee members will be aware that as part of budget 2024, the Minister, Deputy McGrath, announced an increase of the cap on eligible expenditure from €70 million to €125 million. This increase is subject to European Commission approval. This process is already underway as the amendment was notified to European Commission in December.

In the context of today’s subject matter, with regard to regional supports, committee members may be aware that there was previously a regional uplift provision included as part of section 481. The uplift was available from 2019 to 31 December 2023. It was introduced as a short-term, tapered measure for productions being made in areas designated under the state aid regional guidelines and its purpose was to support the development of new local pools of talent in areas outside the current main production hubs. The Department is aware of calls from the industry to extend the uplift. However, as discussed with the budgetary oversight committee at hearings in the past year, there were impediments to the extension of the uplift in its existing form. The relief operated by reference to the regional aid map applicable at the time it was introduced. As a new regional aid map has since been agreed, covering a significantly smaller geographic area, this would no longer be an effective mechanism to target the additional support at areas outside the existing production hubs. An alternative objective geographic indicator has not since been identified and, therefore, a policy decision was taken to focus on supporting and enhancing the standard film tax credit. It is believed that strengthening the 32% credit as part of budget 2024, as I referenced earlier, will ensure Ireland is in an extremely competitive position internationally when it comes to being a desirable location to produce quality productions. It is also worth noting that, as part of budget 2024, the Minister, Deputy McGrath, announced the intention to introduce a new support measure for the unscripted sector. Work is being undertaken by officials on the design of such a measure with a view to its introduction in this year's finance Bill. It is hoped that the introduction of such a measure, in conjunction with the enhancement of the standard credit, will not only be of benefit to the traditional hubs but of significant benefit to the industry on a national scale.

I thank the committee once again for its invitation to appear today and am happy to engage with any questions.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Kavanagh. That brings us to the end of the opening statements. I will now turn to members for questions and answers. We will begin with Senator Warfield.

Senator Fintan Warfield

I thank the witnesses. They are very welcome to the committee. Céad míle fáilte rompu.

I will start with the issue of research and tracking figures from the industry. When I look at heritage figures, the arts sector and the audiovisual sector, we have a range of reports from different years. According to the Olsberg SPI report, in 2015 the wider audiovisual sector had a GVA of €1.1 billion, creating 10,000 direct full-time equivalent jobs and a total of 16,930 direct, indirect and induced full-time equivalent jobs. The fact that the figures in this regard come from different years is part of the challenge we face in understanding the sectors and the various elements of our culture. Is the Olsberg report the latest data used in the industry for this sector? Is there a need for more research? I am happy for any of the witnesses to respond on that question.

Ms Désirée Finnegan

That report was commissioned in 2017-18. Screen Ireland has been actively looking at doing another mapping of the industry now that we are a number of years ahead. With the recent success of the industry, we believe it an appropriate time to commission a new report that would look at where the industry is at the moment. We hope that will take place within the next 12 months,

An Cathaoirleach

Does anybody else want to respond?

Mr. Alan Esslemont

We believe the number of direct, indirect and induced jobs is a good way to measure full-time employment. It works for our industry, which is a strange industry in many ways. Regarding the numbers for TG4 in 2023 for direct, indirect and induced full-time employment, we estimate we created circa 2,046 FTEs. Of these, 1,846 were in the regions outside of Dublin and Wicklow.

Senator Fintan Warfield

To move on, I touched on the issue of the new strategic plan with Kevin Bakhurst when he appeared before the committee. The witnesses have referred to the plan. I had intended to raise the matter, and bringing the support of the independent sector up to between €70 million and €75 million, at the meeting. Reference was made to it being 50% above levels currently produced by independent production companies by 2028. I think the new strategy refers to 2028. What policy measures should we be considering? It is a significant change to the ecosystem of independent production in Ireland. What should the Oireachtas be aware of in the context of that change? Has Screen Ireland or Coimisiún na Meán been talking about this? Do the witnesses have anything to add on what is a significant change to the ecosystem of independent production?

Ms Vivienne Flood

There is an opportunity here, as Ms Finnegan stated, to look at the sectoral benefits as a whole. The other thing that we, along with other members of the sector, have drawn to the attention of the committee and the Department is the content levy, for which we have collectively advocated. We can look at a range of those kind of funds and how they can collectively come together to give the entire sector another boost and elevate it to its full potential. It is an opportunity to look at some of these schemes in the round and see how they can work in a way which is complementary and designed to align in a way that will allow companies to have certainty and engage in more long-term planning on what might be available.

Mr. Dermot Horan

One of the key things is the retention of IP for the production sector. I referred to this in my opening statement. Companies will grow not because they are just service providers for big Hollywood studios, but because they own their catalogue. High-end programming costs a lot of money. The more that team Ireland, which is this union of the tax relief, Screen Ireland, the broadcasters and perhaps the WRAP fund, can bring to the table as you go international, the more IP independent production companies will retain. That allows them to use that IP to sell those programmes repeatedly, to grow as a company and to employ more people. We want to have a sustainable independent sector. We do not want to just increase the spend; we want that spend to create a sustainable sector.

Ms Vivienne Flood

Obviously, reform to the licence fee would enable more certainty in RTÉ's funding and allow us to engage with the sector in a more planned way, as well as on multi-annual deals, perhaps. Those elements coming together to give a bit more certainty within the sector would make a huge difference.

Senator Fintan Warfield

TG4 uses multi-annual deals with production companies. Am I right in saying that?

Mr. Alan Esslemont

Yes, we do. We try to strengthen our companies. There are two things happening here. One is about production in the regions. A lot of that is companies in Dublin which are doing production in the regions, so they fly in and out, but that does not help the regions grow their own creative sector. Our sector has lots of ties with the rest of the creative sector. If we are not there on the ground, then all of the regions are just going to look to Dublin for creativity. One of the strengths of TG4 is that we have built, and are building, an audiovisual capacity in the regions rather than flying in and out, which is really important. You can see the spin-off of the work that is happening, strongly, around Galway but also Waterford and Kerry. One of the biggest drawbacks we have compared with the Welsh language channel is we have half of its public funding. Although Ireland should be a leader in minority language media, Ireland is a laggard. If that changes then, given our model, we can prime an awful lot of extra development in the regions.

Senator Fintan Warfield

Will the media commission update us on the European works levy and where that process is at?

Mr. Rónán Ó Domhnaill

The suggestion of a European works levy was given flesh in the Future of Media Commission report. It was laid at the door of Coimisiún na Meán to conduct a feasibility study about how a levy might work, what it might bring in, how it could be used and how the scheme might take shape. Fís Éireann will also have a role in that.

At the moment we have a consultancy group called Nordicity undertaking work on that on our behalf. The Future of Media Commission tasked us with presenting the Minister with the feasibility options by year end. We hope to come in well ahead of schedule and have that with the Minister, I would hope, in the next six to eight weeks, roughly. We will have it then.

Senator Fintan Warfield

Go raibh maith agaibh.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I thank all of the witnesses and not just for their presentations today.

We are experiencing a relatively golden period in terms of Irish content production in film, television drama and animation. The combination of the work all the witnesses do is particularly important. Our committee wants to see a lot more of it, and part of the reason for that is what the witnesses have outlined. We have talked about the economic benefits to the country, Mr. Esslemont talked about the linguistic dividends, and there is clearly a tourism dividend. We know this because this committee also deals with tourism and our colleagues here talk about it. There is also a dividend in terms of national well-being, being able to tell Irish stories and get that content out there. I am very happy Coimisiún na Meán has placed a strong emphasis on that. Of particular concern for us is that we want to see that developed at national and regional levels, and we have heard and know about many good examples.

Coming out of out of these engagements, we are obviously going to be making recommendations to the Minister for Finance in our committee's report. I will not ask the people from the Department about this, but I will ask in the case of the witnesses from the agencies, Screen Ireland, RTÉ and TG4, if there were one financial measure they believe would assist further, what would that be?

Ms Désirée Finnegan

Screen Ireland has undertaken a lot of work in this area. It has been a key policy priority for us. We have tried in recent years to put in place a number of support measures. As I have mentioned, we have launched a network of talent academies across the country. We have built a nationwide production fund to support, in particular, local domestic projects. We have Cine4, which is in partnership with Coimisiún na Meán and TG4, to do Irish language projects.

The area that has been challenging is the regional uplift. A significant benefit was experienced when that was in place. What it can do is bring larger scale productions to the rest of the country. The benefit that comes from those productions can be significant. It is the scale of employment opportunities and skills development that can be gained on those larger productions. There are the benefits of things like screen tourism because these projects tend to have a very broad reach. The incentive-----

Senator Malcolm Byrne

Sorry to interrupt. Given what Mr. Kavanagh has outlined and that there are issues around state aid rules, of which we are aware, should we look at the 32% rate, especially in light of what has happened in the UK? What action should we take?

Ms Désirée Finnegan

We are actively looking at the new announcement made in the UK and we want to spend some time looking at its potential impact. From a regional perspective or nationwide, we believe the benefit that uplift can bring is probably the single most important priority for building the industry across the whole country. For us that incentive is very important.

Ms Libbie McQuillan

I wish to underscore what has been said. Large-scale options, in particular, have a wider creative canvas for people to learn their craft, which allows individuals to work on domestic productions. It is incredibly important. An incentive that is national is incredibly visible. It is certainly taken into account by the US studios when they think about where and how to relocate. It is noticed in particular that a country and an area are open for business.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

Let us say one of those international studios chose somewhere other than filming in Dublin or Wicklow. What would those studios or the witnesses estimate to be the additional cost percentage wise?

Ms Désirée Finnegan

It completely can vary depending on the nature and type of the project. Certainly there are additional costs. As there is not a local and permanent crew base in some of the other hubs around the country, there are the additional costs of travelling and accommodation per diem, and they can be really significant. Screen Ireland has the ability to support domestic productions but it is the automatic nature of an incentive that-----

Senator Malcolm Byrne

If I were to push Ms Finnegan to give a ballpark percentage, where she was saying to one of the big US companies to come to Ireland but that they wanted them to film in Clare, Mayo or Donegal-----

An Cathaoirleach

Or Cavan.

Ms Désirée Finnegan

To give a real answer, we might have to come back to the committee because it can vary. At one point the uplift was at 5% but it can vary.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I might ask to come back, just because I am conscious of time.

Ms Désirée Finnegan

Sure.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

Perhaps Mr. Horan, Ms Flood and, perhaps, Mr. Esslemont might want to come in on what they estimate the cost difference would be.

Mr. Dermot Horan

Like Ms Finnegan, I am not sure that we know the exact percentage but I do know how transformative it was to get the likes of the regional uplift for the first season of “Smother” and we also got the WRAP fund. The WRAP fund was the first to come and then we got the regional uplift, which gave that production the vote of confidence not to shoot all the interiors in Dublin but to shoot the whole thing in Lahinch. The entire production was shot in Lahinch and that is what we want.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

Is it fair to say that if the regional uplift and WRAP funding had not been there, a series like “Smother” could not have been produced in somewhere like Lahinch?

Mr. Dermot Horan

If the regional uplift had not been there, there would have been pressure on the producer to shoot all the exteriors for a couple of weeks in Lahinch and then shoot all the interiors, because a lot of dramas are set indoors, in a studio in the Dublin-Wicklow area.

We do not want to do that. We want the authentic look and feel of that region. The incentive is that certainty, because there are the other funds, such as the WRAP fund and even Screen Ireland. Producers make applications. You hope you will do the best you can but there is something about a percentage, be it 32% or 37%, that is certain. That is a really good start for putting together a finance plan.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I want to ask Mr. Esslemont, because he obviously has the experience that he spoke about, what he reckons is the difference in the cost.

Mr. Alan Esslemont

I would put it a different way. Taking "Smother", for example, we hope to get to a point where hubs exist outside of Dublin and Wicklow and you are not figuring in all the time that you are paying people to move outside the Pale. It does not make sense. A huge number of the people working on "Smother" are people who cut their teeth in TG4. The director, for example, was the director of the first of our Cine4 things. We have to approach it two ways. I understand totally that a big attraction for the State is to bring dollars in but we have to get to a point where we are growing the industry, growing companies and growing skills outside of the industry.

The Senator asked what is the one thing to do on that. I will ask my colleague, Ms Ní Dhálaigh, to talk about talent, but one thing would be to take our scale to the level that it should be. TG4's scale, when I started, was 9% of the turnover of RTÉ despite in law having almost exactly the same remit. We will not get through the 2030s with the scale we have at present. We need to get at least to the scale that is enjoyed by S4C, the Basques or the Galicians. That is the kind of level we need to get to. We will not get through the 2030s with our present scale. Given our model spends 80% outside of Dublin and Wicklow, that can then prime an awful lot of development and make it easier for people to work outside of the Pale. Another big thing is that we have to develop talent outside of Dublin and Wicklow.

Does Ms Ní Dhálaigh want to speak a little about that?

Ms Lís Ní Dhálaigh

In terms of talent, it is important to make sure that training and development are spearheaded for Irish language sectors. While there are a lot of good initiatives happening, it is quite fragmented in terms of training and development for the Irish language sector. We are keen to work with Údarás na Gaeltachta and Fís Éireann to spearhead the development of Irish language sector talent and development in particular.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I have one final question and Mr. Kavanagh might want to take it. When the 5% regional uplift was introduced, and this is where I was asking the question, the figure of 5% was set because there was an assumption that filming outside of Dublin and Wicklow cost at least 5% more. Has the Department carried out any other research as to the impact of the regional uplift we have heard about and whether it involves a cost greater than 5%, or is a separate calculation being carried out by the Department? In light of, as Ms Finnegan mentioned, the changes that are happening with regard to the UK film tax regime, what is the Department's perspective on that?

Mr. Ian Kavanagh

The UK tax credit changes only happened very recently. At the minute, we are keeping an eye on the impact of what will happen over there. Ultimately, at the same time, we have just announced a very big change to our own tax credit. The Senator will be aware that the value of our own tax credit is due to increase significantly, it is hoped, in the coming months. It is the biggest change we have introduced since the credit change from an investor-led credit to a corporation tax credit.

In terms of the UK stuff, we obviously will assess the impact of it. If there are any issues associated with it or if there are any competition issues associated with it, we will brief the Minister on it.

In terms of the regional uplift in general, when it was introduced the 5% was the acceptable high point for us to introduce that rate at. As the Senator will be aware, it was-----

Senator Malcolm Byrne

When Mr. Kavanagh says "the acceptable high point", how was that determined?

Mr. Ian Kavanagh

I do not remember off the top of my head how it was determined. I believe discussions were undertaken with the sector. We would have received a number of submissions from the sector on the costs associated with moving a production from the Dublin-Wicklow region to other regions in Ireland. I can get the Senator information on it - I do not have it to hand - but I believe there was a price point that was brought up on a number of occasions. We landed, and it was a political decision to land, on the 5%. Obviously, that was also introduced as a time-bound and tapered measure. It stayed at 5% for three years and went down to 3% and then 2%. It was always signposted that it would be a temporary measure. In terms of an assessment carried out since, we have not carried out a detailed assessment on the regional uplift.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I thank the Chair.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

I would like to start by congratulating my cousin, Cillian Murphy, on his great win - best actor at the Oscars the weekend before last. He is my third cousin. I do not think he is aware that he is my cousin. Cillian, if you are listening, you have always been my favourite third cousin, and next time you are in west Cork - I know he is a fan of Connolly's in west Cork - we will go for a pint.

It was an extraordinary moment. Certainly, Cork people were walking taller that weekend. There was a lot of pride. Right throughout the country, there was pride. I think it was a culmination of this build-up to something big happening in terms of acknowledgement of the incredible independent sector that is there, but also the acting and writing talent we have.

It was interesting in his interview after that Cillian acknowledged that in Ireland we do support artists. I think that is true. We do. Maybe it is not always as much as we should or not always in the ways that we should, but certainly we have a great tradition here of supporting artists. We can certainly do better.

There is no doubt we are doing phenomenal things here in film and television. The past few years, in particular, have highlighted that. It is always the likes of "The Banshees of Inisherin" that are pointed to, but I think "An Cailín Ciúin" is a far more important moment in terms of the Irish film sector in particular, because of the importance of the language but also because it is was a stunningly beautiful simple film that had a massive impact. Magical things are certainly happening throughout Ireland and that has to be acknowledged. A lot of that has to do with some of the people who are in this room today, and that has to be acknowledged as well.

Here is where the "but" comes. Despite all of that and despite all the success, what I am not hearing today and what I have not been hearing over the past six months is a clear direction or clear plan in terms of how we will continue to incentivise, or even incentivise in a bigger or more strategic way, regional development. The regional uplift was great. It did great things in many areas but, for example, and I have no problem throwing down the Cork jersey here, Cork was obviously excluded. Despite the fact we were all so proud of Cillian and his achievements in the county, that is still a big issue.

The conversation today is about how we invest in the regional areas. I represent west Cork - Cork South-West - and that is where I would like to see investment happen, but under the state aid maps that were in place in terms of that 5%, Cork was left out. Screen Ireland and the Department, through Ms Nash, might be able to answer the following. What is the clear plan in terms of ensuring that, outside of Dublin and Wicklow, the independent production companies but also these small independent studios we seeing pop up in rural areas get a fair share of that investment? I believe there are two things that need to happen here. We need to see this increase in cultural funding which is going towards those productions that are in our native tongue and that have decided to take regional areas for locations, but we also need to see capital investment. Senator Byrne often talks about the idea of an arts capital fund, which is a fantastic idea. Certainly, at the very least, we need capital funding to go into infrastructure around the regional areas of Ireland, because we have the crew.

I always cite this example in west Cork. We have seen the establishment of the West Cork Film Studios recently, which is a phenomenal success story. We have the crew, the make-up artists, the location managers, the writers, the actors and production managers. Right across the board, they are here, but we need to keep them here, and we will not keep them here unless we have that infrastructure.

We obviously have the locations. As bad as "Irish Wish" was - and God it was pretty hard to watch - the locations were extraordinary. There is no doubt about that. We have those locations. We have them in west Cork from Mizen Head to Kinsale. I sound like a broken record on this, but we have the crew, we have the locations and what we are missing is investment in studios. We need those studios to keep the crew here. I will go back to the Department, perhaps Ms Finnegan and Coimisiun na Meán as well on this. Do they think it would be appropriate to take a two-pronged investment approach? That would be investment in the cultural side of and the productions but also investment in the infrastructure and studios in particular.

Ms Mary Nash

I will take the arts capital fund first because though it is not really part of film, it is part of the investment part of the portfolio. We have an arts capital fund similar to the sports capital fund but it is a bit smaller. At the moment it is called stream E. It is what is known as a demand-led scheme, meaning if someone applies and meets all the conditions he or she gets the money and does not have to compete with other projects. Consequently, the amounts available have to be small. Applicants can get up €50,000, which is not that small.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

What is it called again?

Ms Mary Nash

It is called the arts and cultural capital funding. We generally refer to it as stream E because there were streams A, B, C and D.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

Is there an open call for that?

Ms Mary Nash

It is on our website.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

Can it be applied for?

Ms Mary Nash

I will give it to the clerk to the committee and pass it on. Essentially, a person just looks at the conditions, gets all his or her ducks in a row, puts in an application and he or she should have a decision within a few weeks. Now there is matching-----

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

This is for theatre and-----

Ms Mary Nash

Anything to do with the arts. There is an emphasis on climate change and anything environmental, changes and also disabled access. In general, it is for a wide range of arts such as theatres, music - not-for-profit organisations.

That leads me to the next part. Film studios are excluded under state aid rules. If members care to read a study from Spain, the name of the studio was the Spanish word for city. It is a very interesting case if they ever want to look it up. Essentially, the Spanish Government and the regional government, gave a lot of money to a particular studio and when it was challenged, the studio ended up paying all the money back. The studio is still there and is state of the art, but it has been there for many years and has changed hands a number of times. There may be other ways around that to get the money to infrastructure.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

That is important. It is great to hear about that funding stream, but there is a reason it probably had not been applied for. We can see a lot of these small, independent studios being swallowed up by bigger companies, but it is so important they are locally led, locally managed and locally run. It is about the add-on benefits in the form of catering, transport, carpentry and whatever else. Then there is education, such as educating the new generation of makeup artists, set designers, etc. There is a real body of work to be done there.

Ms Mary Nash

The intent of the regional uplift was to generate training in whatever area we might be talking about. While there are trained people in Cork, the reason it stays in Dublin and Wicklow is it is cheaper. When moving out of the city it costs a lot more and this is because the labour is being moved from the city or Wicklow and paid per diem, as Ms Finnegan said. If the crew base was local, the productions would go there.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

That is my point exactly. They are already there. They are choosing to live there. It is just that at the moment-----

Ms Mary Nash

Yes. It is possible there are not enough.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

It is a case of build it and they will come.

Ms Désirée Finnegan

I agree with the Deputy's characterisation of "An Cailín Ciúin" and the impact that had globally. There is no question about that, having looked back through the effect it had, the global media coverage, the promotion of Irish culture, locations on screen and especially the language. One of our primary roles is the expression of Irish culture on screen. We believe to really make a meaningful difference in terms of nationwide development we need a holistic strategy and approach to it. That would have been the domestic activity TG4 referenced earlier and that idea of building creative clusters in certain parts of the country and having a broad film officer network around the country. In a number of counties there are dedicated film officers and they have been very effective at encouraging productions to come to local counties and also build up on the ground activity.

There are also things like infrastructure locally. The Deputy mentioned the studios. They are really important to be able to build the crew base around. It is also about supporting local production companies and talent development initiatives from the ground up. The dual approach we have championed for a long time is trying to balance those two things, namely, ensuring we are supporting the domestic storytelling on screen while also attracting international productions to different parts of the country. That is incredibly important to really make a meaningful change in the industry and ensuring we are supporting it. The Deputy may be aware we started the creative clusters programme with Cork as the pilot. In November 2023, we met a large group of stakeholders during the Cork Film Festival to really try to understand better what we can do as an agency to help support the growth of a cluster. There is so much talent. As he mentioned, the infrastructure is there. What else can we do to help build and support that? I understand the councils locally are working on their support of film and what can be done and I think it is part of the new arts-----

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

I agree with the idea of an officer as well.

I will just move to a quick last question. It is perhaps for Mr. Kavanagh or Ms Nash again. What need to be done about those state aid maps and trying to get them passed at European level? The last maps were a bit of a disaster when it came to the tranches and areas that were left out. That is an issue we can all agree with. In Portugal, for example, I understand a system was set up for supporting film and TV based on population density. That makes sense, though I am not sure that would get passed here. However, Portugal is obviously within the EU and it managed to get its state aid maps passed. What do we need to do to get new state aid maps passed if we come up with some type of incentive?

Mr. Ian Kavanagh

The development of the map is not within the remit of the Department of Finance. When the regional uplift was introduced, it was not done as a regional aid technically. It is basically layered on the 32% credit and is essentially a cultural support, so it is not a regional aid, but we utilised the regional aid map that was in existence to target the areas for the relief, so it was not developed with section 481 in mind. It predated section 481. It predated the regional uplift by approximately six years. Essentially, that map was not developed for the purpose of the credit, but the other way around in that the map was in existence and we utilised it as a mechanism to target areas to avail of the relief. That map then went out of date in, I think, 2021. There was a new one agreed. I think the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment led the negotiations on that one. With the areas identified in the 2014 map, the parameters are slightly different compared with the mechanism used to identify areas for the new map in 2022. The population coverage of the new map is significantly lower than the previous one and that one is due to be in place until 2027. When the maps changed over we went to the European Commission to ask whether it was okay to use the previous map until the regional uplift essentially ceased to exist. It agreed to that, but if we were to try to reintroduce the regional uplift again, we would have to use the new map, in our opinion, and it essentially is not fit for purpose in that respect from our point of view.

In terms of the actual negotiation of the maps and how we get it past the European Commission, it is helpful to see it as a separate entity almost when it comes to the regional updates because the regional updates will have to utilise the map as opposed to-----

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

It kind of comes back to what-----

Mr. Ian Kavanagh

Yes.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

I am not sure that extra 5% is the way to go again because we would have the same regions missing out. Maybe new maps in terms of a different investment is the way to go. I will finish on this, because I have gone way over my time. Obviously, despite the incredible work that is going on right across the sector, including the work of people here, and I totally take Ms Flood's point regarding sorting out the future funding and wherever that comes from, which is key, we need to see a clear path in terms of how we approach it. At the moment, besides the different strategies and policies, all we have is the flat section 481 funding. We need a more strategic approach to come up with the funds I talked about from a cultural and capital point of view. I thank the witnesses

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Deputy. I call Deputy Munster, who is joining us online.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I will start with questions for TG4. Can Mr. Esslemont talk us through the budget issue he raised regarding the fact that TG4 received €6 million less in budget 2024 than it had anticipated and how that has affected television production companies and the station? He also mentioned specific incentives relating to Gaeltacht areas. Can he outline what is available at the moment and what he would like to see in that regard?

Mr. Alan Esslemont

Go raibh maith agat, a Theachta. Last year was a good year for TG4. We went to the Oscars and we launched a children's channel after 20 years of trying. Many good things were coming through. We were asked to prepare a statement of strategy for both Coimisiún na Meán and the Department. That statement of strategy was accepted by the Dáil. It saw us growing by roughly €10 million or €11 million every year until we would reach a scale equivalent to S4C. We thought we were making good progress with the Department. The Minister has been very good for TG4. Just before the budget, however, we found out that rather than €11 million, which we had expected, we were to receive €5 million. Given that we had just launched a children's channel that we need to populate and for which we have some fantastic content coming through, that was very difficult. I do hear quite often that politicians want to have a remove between themselves and the editorial content of broadcasters. When we lose €6 million almost overnight, however, we understand who is the boss. That has a major impact on our editorial content. That has made this year very difficult for us. We were grateful in as much that we got a supplementary towards the end of last year thanks to the support of people in the Oireachtas. That has helped us a little. We need a strategy for TG4, however. We need to see a stronger TG4 that will balance the broadcasting ecosystem in Ireland. This year, we did not see that, which was worrying.

On the second question, we do not have skin in the game here but we would like to see companies grow in areas outside Dublin-Wicklow. Because we were purposely set up outside of the Dublin-Wicklow area - I think we were the first in this regard - we are attracted to regional development. We have seen the problems with the map. We have all been across the problems with the map. If we do not have a map, then we have a nationwide supply of money. That basically means that given inertia, all of the competitive advantage lies within Dublin and Wicklow and without a map, that is not going to change.

We looked around. We have looked at the various maps. Given that the uplift was meant to be a cultural thing and the State has a great deal of commitment to the Irish language de jure, if you like, we felt that because the map of the Gaeltacht exists - these areas are historically the poorest in Ireland - that is why people still speak Irish there. A cultural and linguistic case can be made for using that map. Then, if we do use that map, we will get a glow around the map, even if we add in the bailte seirbhíse Gaeltachta, which are the Gaeltacht service towns, and we could increase that glow.

We know the likes of "Smother" did use the sector that has been working for TG4 and has been using the resources. Many of the regional productions do reach out to our talent because we are available and working in the regions. That is basically what we feel. Now, this is down to the Department, but it is worth looking at this proposal. That map exists, so it would encourage companies to be based in the Gaeltacht. There would, therefore, be a linguistic return on investment, but it would also create a base for other productions that are not happening. If, for example, there was a company in the Gaeltacht in County Cork, it would create some kind of cluster around it that would help towards the vision we have. If there is not a map, however, then inertia rules and Dublin-Wicklow rules, and we will not get regional development.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I thank Mr. Esslemont for that. As a follow-up, I will ask the Departments if they are aware of TG4's proposal for the Gaeltacht. Have they come across it? Has it been brought to their attention? Can they comment on it? Do the officials from the Departments have a breakdown of the recipients of the tax relief in terms of Irish production companies versus the international ones that come here and hire out teams under Irish producers for the duration of a job, etc.? Is the tax relief the same for both? Are there any additional requirements for international studios? We are talking big sums here. It could be up to €40 million if the EU accepts the increase to €125 million. There also seems to be no long-term investment for such major tax breaks. Could we have comments from the Departments on those two questions, please?

Ms Mary Nash

First, the tax reliefs for all productions are the same. An incoming production must partner with an Irish production company or it cannot get tax relief. In other words, a company from America, Britain or France cannot get tax relief unless it partners with an Irish company. It is the Irish company that makes the application for the tax relief. The way we look at it in the Department is that the incoming and indigenous productions have a symbiotic relationship and people move between the two fairly seamlessly, both the shooting and construction crew - I am talking about live action here - and the talent, as they are called, that is, the actors and so on. The incoming productions are the ones where the kind of high-level training occurs for the indigenous crew.

Deputy Imelda Munster

What about long-term investments? There is not a great deal to show for such large tax breaks.

Ms Mary Nash

We would contend that there is a significant amount to show for it.

There was a headline in the newspaper recently along the lines that “the overnight success of the Irish film industry has been 20 years in the making”. It has been a slow build-up over the years. What we are seeing now is not really what was done in the past three, four and five years rather it is what has been done in the past 20 years.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Yes, those are benefits of what we have seen of late. However, I am talking about bang for buck, if you like, from a taxpayer point of view about the long-term investment. The other question was on TG4’s proposal for the Gaeltacht, the map and the benefits of that.

Ms Mary Nash

The Department was aware of that. It was a proposal that came to us jointly from Údarás na Gaeltachta and TG4. I will hand over to the Department of Finance officials because we discussed it with them.

Mr. Ian Kavanagh

The TG4 submission was one of a number of submissions we received over the past couple of budgets in relation to the regional uplift. Like I said in my opening statement on the difficulties associated with taking the uplift forward, a decision was made at political level to enhance the standard section 481 tax credit as opposed to continuing with anything regional uplift related.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Which Department had the overall say in that decision?

Mr. Ian Kavanagh

The Minister for Finance.

Deputy Imelda Munster

That was just to end, if you like, the proposal for the Gaeltacht.

Mr. Ian Kavanagh

Essentially, the regional uplift itself was well on track to ceasing at that stage. It is important to contextualise this a little bit. When the regional uplift was introduced as a concept, it was meant to be tapered and timebound. It was always signposted that it would cease by the end of 2023. As soon as the uplift started tapering, we were aware there were significant calls from Ministers, originally to retain the uplift at 5% or introduce some sort of alternative. They took the decision to enhance the section 481 credit instead of continuing with the uplift.

Deputy Imelda Munster

The benefits of spreading it geographically have all been lost now because of that.

Can the Coimisiún na Meán representatives talk us through the funding level and how it is decided each year? Is it done on a year-by-year basis? How is it decided upon and allocated?

Mr. Rónán Ó Domhnaill

The funding is distributed through our Sound and Vision scheme. Some 7% of the licence fee income is set aside for the administration of the Sound and Vision scheme and our archiving scheme. It is run through open rounds in general or sometimes more specialised rounds. There are roughly between two or four rounds a year. The open rounds roughly equate to €6 million to €7 million per round. We have had supplements to the 7% income from the Department since 2020, which has been very welcome. We got a €6 million investment from the Department into the Sound and Vision scheme for this year, which was given to us last year for this year’s funding and is very welcome. That was to negate, in part, the drop-off in income because of the licence fee and also to invest more in programming relating to young people and new Irish communities. Open rounds are adjudicated on and assessed by external assessors and they progress through the year. That is how those are operated. One thing to bear in mind about them is that the request for funding sometimes could be in the ratio of 2:1 or 3:1 of what we have available to give out and there are times when there are very worthwhile projects we would like to support but cannot because the funding is not there. It is interesting that ar scáth a chéile a mhaireann na daoine. With the Sound and Vision scheme, 40% of the projects also avail of section 481 relief as well. It shows the holistic approach that is needed for funding in Ireland. Different measures need to come together to ensure success.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I am sure Coimisiún na Meán will anticipate changes to the scheme in the coming years when the licence fee is reformed and so on. For the here and now, what is the funding deficit?

Mr. Rónán Ó Domhnaill

For last year, I think it was roughly around €1.5 million.

Deputy Imelda Munster

For different worthwhile applications, did Mr. Ó Domhnaill say it could be one in three or-----

Mr. Rónán Ó Domhnaill

It could be 2:1 or 3:1, depending. As regards the overall structure, one of the things that is needed, which is set out in the Future of Media Commission, is the establishment of a statutory media fund, which could support news and current affairs journalism as well as just broadcasting and filmmaking.

Deputy Imelda Munster

My time is probably up, is it?

An Cathaoirleach

It is. The Deputy is happy enough and got all she needed to get.

Senator Shane Cassells

I welcome the witnesses and thank everyone for the work they do for such an important sector. So many of them are the people behind the scenes making things happen and that has to be acknowledged today.

There has been much talk since this session started on the capital side, the investment side and the tax break side. One of the aspects I wish to touch on from the outset is that in the lead-up to the Oscars, director David Puttnam described us as a nation of storytellers. I reflected on that because the summer before last, Senator Malcolm Byrne and I went to Ardmore Studios to visit the set of “Vikings”. We met with the famous producer Morgan O’Sullivan. We spent three hours going around the set and speaking with him. Come the end, both of us being politicians asked him what he wanted us for because we did not come down there for nothing. He did not want to talk tax or money, rather he said we need more scriptwriters. He said we are bereft and that is what we need investment in; it is needed on that side of the house. His words came back to me as I was reading the words of Element Pictures CEO Ed Guiney this week, who is spearheading a two-day screenwriting festival in Dublin. He echoed the words of Morgan O’Sullivan when he said that we need to invest in developing our own stories if our industry is going to build up to the next phase and that there is not that investment on that side. I know everyone is doing their work. It was interesting that Morgan O’Sullivan and Ed Guiney spoke about developing intellectual property, which Mr. Horan touched on in his opening statement, and developing the screenwriting side. I just wanted to throw that out because in much of our focus in Ireland, we solve things with tax breaks. However, rather than being just a base for American production companies to ship up, use our land, use our facilities and go home again, the creative people are talking about the IP on our side. I am throwing that out to Ms Finnegan, Mr. Horan and Coimisiún na Meán.

Ms Désirée Finnegan

We could not agree more that the investment in creative talent is absolutely essential. It is the heart or the core of what we do in Screen Ireland. Regarding writing and writers, for example, we have two different programmes we brought in during the pandemic. This was initially a support measure to start supporting creative artists more directly. We brought in a number of different programmes and have retained some. One is we support new, emerging writers through our Spotlight schemes, which is a funding scheme open for new entrants and new writers. First-time or emerging screenwriters can-----

Senator Shane Cassells

How many are supported through that scheme? Is it around a dozen or so per year?

Ms Désirée Finnegan

I have to come back to the Senator on the exact number. We have two different programmes - one for new writers and one called "screenplay development" for established writers who already have a credit.

They can get direct funding to continue writing a piece of work they want to pursue. We also launched a programme, the Voice, with the Screen Directors Guild of Ireland, another round of which we are looking to bring back later this year. That is a programme where directors can get funded to work on something, taking it from an idea through to concept development so it is ready to go to the first stage of development. The directors can do that themselves and then bring it to a production company or producer to take forward to the next stage of development. It is something we are very passionate about.

We are looking at a review of our development and production funding streams at present. We have 43 different funding streams across various areas, including marketing and distribution, inward production and skills development but, as the Senator said, that area of supporting screenwriters, directors and artists directly is something that is very important for us to build the industry. As an agency, we have hundreds of projects that are being supported in active stages of development. Some of them are in partnership with RTÉ, TG4 and the other broadcasters, and some with a variety of different partners. On that focus on development, we have increased our funding for development over recent years. As I said, we are actively looking to capitalise on the recent success and ensuring we are as ambitious as we possibly can be for the sector in terms of our development levels. We have had exceptional support from the Minister, Deputy Martin, for the funding levels for Screen Ireland and ensuring they are directed towards building, as the Senator said, that creative base of artists. We have seen the success globally. We just want to ensure we are doing that at the right levels.

An Cathaoirleach

I have to pause for a moment to suspend the meeting. There is a vote in the Dáil and I have to leave, as does Deputy Munster. I propose we put-----

Senator Malcolm Byrne

One of us can continue to chair, if you want.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Byrne will chair while Senator Cassells asks his questions. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Senator Malcolm Byrne took the Chair.

Senator Shane Cassells

Mr. Horan touched on the intellectual property, IP, side, which I echoed in my remarks. What are his thoughts in respect of that?

Mr. Dermot Horan

Everything starts with development. When we look to make a drama series, it starts with a writer and an idea. What we want to try to do is enable that writer to write his or her idea. That needs development money, which is key. The Senator might have seen that part of the content levy proposal, which is in the legislation, is the concept of development. Development is key because when filming starts, with 70 or 80 people at a shoot, there is no going back. The script and idea have to be right.

RTÉ is putting more money into development. We have employed, and will employ more, development people who can work with writers. We have, in association with Screen Ireland, a very good scheme, Storyland. Every autumn, three new, high-production value, half-hour dramas go out. One of those writers from last year is now writing one of the episodes of "Hidden Assets", working under Peter McKenna, the writer of "Kin" and "Hidden Assets". Another two writers are now working on a new series for young adults based in Galway. We are acutely aware that everything starts with a writer. If it starts with that writer, his or her idea, and an Irish production company, the likelihood is the IP will be retained by that production company.

Senator Shane Cassells

Is Mr. Horan confident the pathways exist in this country to capture the creative talent that is there through the schemes RTÉ is running and that people will find those channels from college into the sector?

Mr. Dermot Horan

I will be honest; it needs to ramp up. It is for all of us to ramp up our volume. Last year, RTÉ put out 43 hours of drama. A few years ago, we were putting out approximately ten hours of drama. For each of those hours of drama, there is probably a 3:1 ratio of other dramas we developed that, for one reason or another, have not come to fruition. We need to develop and commission more. We need our partners to do more. We need that certainty of the other funding. We are competing in a very competitive international marketplace. We need to build an industry of scale so that we can work with those writers. We want to enable writers all the time. We get proposals from writers every week.

Senator Shane Cassells

On that point, Mr. Guiney mentioned RTÉ in his comments, when he talked about there not being enough investment in television drama. He did not think that investment would happen because of issues within RTÉ. I note, however, while there is a lot of focus on cuts in the November restructuring plan, there is a commitment to increase independent production by 50%, which is good.

Mr. Dermot Horan

There is. As the Senator will see, we have already done so over recent years. I cited all the dramas we have commissioned in association with our partners here, such as "Obituary", "North Sea Connection" and "Kin". "Kin" has been number one on the BBC iPlayer in the UK for the past month. "Love/Hate" is now doing very well on ITVX, which is ITV's streamer, off the back of the success of "Kin". We are getting an international reputation for drama. We are already doing more drama and want to do more. With Element Pictures, we developed "The Dry", which got a five-star review in The Guardian stating it should win all the awards in the UK. We hope it will win all the awards in Ireland as well. We are doing more but we want to do even more.

The other issue we have to look at is the way people consume media these days. People do not just sit down at 6 p.m., have their tea and watch telly until 11.30 p.m. People probably have one and a half to two hours available to watch what I describe as sit-back television. They may have already got their news from their iPhone or Android phone. We need to give them high-quality content because we have to compete with the streamers. What is being watched on the RTÉ Player, more than any other genre besides live sport, is drama and scripted content. It is incumbent on all broadcasters to increase that because it is what the audience wants.

Senator Shane Cassells

Mr. Horan touched on the issue of content, as did Ms Flood, as regards its impact. Mr. Horan cited one such example. I am sure that is something Ms Flood feels needs to be implemented very quickly.

Ms Vivienne Flood

Absolutely. We would welcome that. It will be so important in offering alternative options for the sector so there are more options for getting projects off the ground. As Mr. Horan said, we have been saying all along that one of the additive qualities that fund could create is to offer a solution to the lower levels of funding that have been there for development, in particular.

Senator Shane Cassells

Does anyone else want to touch on that?

Ms Libbie McQuillan

I will build on the very good question the Senator asked about reaching all across the value chain at various levels. As Ms Finnegan said, we run approximately 40 different schemes. One of the reasons we do that is we are operating across the value chain. We are going to where the talent is, wherever it is, at each stage of the journey. We mentioned the importance to us of the National Talent Academies, in particular. As they have stood themselves up and established themselves, it will allow for us to be more and more skewed in our nationwide reach and impact in future. We are already seeing the early results of that. It is through those kind of initiatives that we get to the great good of particular stories becoming more universal.

Mr. Rónán Ó Domhnaill

The issue of scriptwriters that was raised is very interesting. When we look at applications that come in under the sound and vision scheme and see a new scriptwriter, people are almost jumping up with excitement. It needs to happen more and more. Part of our work in training and sectoral development is related to that. I will ask Ms Crowley, our media development director, to speak briefly on that.

Ms Sinéad Crowley

Mr. Ó Domhnaill spoke about sound and vision but we also have our sectoral learning and training programme. We recently announced almost €800,000 in funding for sectoral learning, development and sponsorship. This is also very important for regional development because many of the projects we sponsor are throughout the country. For example, we support a group, X-Pollinator, which supports women in film and television and has events in various areas. We also support GORM Media, which looks at people from under-represented groups, and we support film festivals throughout the country. It is very important to remember that as well as the headline figures in film that get supported, we will not have Oscar winners unless we have support on the ground for people to make small films, take part in smaller film festivals, and get that learning.

In terms of the individual projects some of the money might not look huge but it is really important for supporting people, particularly those from under-represented groups or people who might not have the opportunity to break through or go to the larger colleges. We are also close to publishing our gender equality, diversity and inclusion strategy which would again look at getting other voices on screen and heard which is hugely important.

Mr. Alan Esslemont

It is good to remember that it is not only the English language that can get international resonance, as "An Cailín Ciúin" showed. "An Cailín Ciúin" was, and is, a development scheme. Every year we develop between eight and ten scenarios so that is the money for a writer to sit down and work that forward. If someone has Irish he or she is also an active bilingual so the likes of Colm Bairéad who sat down and got the money to do the scenario for "An Cailín Ciúin" can now sit down and work on works of international resonance in English. We have new schemes coming through with our partners, Northern Ireland Screen, Screen Ireland and Coimisiún na Meán. We have a scheme called Tús which allows people to start and then Céim Eile to take drama a bit further. As Mr. Horan said, development is key. We will not get good work without development in both languages.

Senator Shane Cassells

I know I have used my time but I would like to ask another question. We promised Morgan O'Sullivan we would raise that so I am glad we did. He was very famous for producing a show involving a Navan man 40 years ago called "Remington Steele". People like me were delighted as young kids to watch Pierce Brosnan on stage and took advantage of-----

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Malcolm Byrne)

I hope Senator Cassells is not drawing comparisons.

Senator Shane Cassells

He is not my cousin. Morgan O'Sullivan also brought things like "Braveheart" through the section 35 grant to Ireland, in particular to Trim. Speaking of tax I wanted to touch first on scriptwriting, which is the most important. Mr. Kavanagh mentioned at the end of his statement the work being undertaken by the Department and the support of the Minister, Deputy Michael McGrath, for the unscripted sector. He said it is intended to have this introduced in this year's finance Bill. Can Mr. Kavanagh tell me where we are with that? I called for it last year. All of the focus is on the scripted sector but there is a large amount of potential in the unscripted sector as well. I mentioned the value of things such as "Next Level Chef" to the studios in Ashford last year. Where are we with respect to that?

Mr. Ian Kavanagh

We are currently in the development phase of the incentive. We are engaging with the sector at the moment to get a bit more detail on how it operates in Ireland and identifying certain aspects such as where the market failure is in particular. A lot of the discussions we are undertaking with the sector will also have an eye on notification to the European Commission to get any incentive approved. At the minute we are having discussions with the sector and the intention is to have draft legislation published as part of the finance Bill, as mentioned in my opening statement. There is also the European Commission notification that will be required to be done, so we will do that before the end of the year.

Senator Shane Cassells

Okay. Speaking of the European Commission, in terms of the increase in the eligibility cap from €70 million to €125 million, where is that process? The Department is awaiting ratification on that. When is that due?

Mr. Ian Kavanagh

We notified the European Commission in December. We have had contact from it since and have responded. Our understanding is that the process is nearing a conclusion so we hope to have a decision on the notification very soon.

Senator Shane Cassells

I know Mr. Kavanagh is not going to comment on this, but I will ask about the mood music. I know it was clearly played out last year on a very international scale that NBC chiefs basically put it to both the Tánaiste and the Taoiseach that if that cap was not extended, it would nearly amount to saying goodbye to a hell of a lot of big productions. That was not lost on other people. Where are we likely to sit with respect to the outcome of this?

Mr. Ian Kavanagh

I have dealt with a few notifications. Going on my own judgment I would be quite positive but that is also heavily caveated.

Senator Shane Cassells

Okay. Finally-----

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Malcolm Byrne)

Very finally. I have given more latitude than the Chair of the committee. I am being far too generous.

Senator Shane Cassells

A lot of people who are buoyed by success are talking about the capacity of the studios we have and the potential for more capital investment in studios. Can I ask people within the sector if they feel that this is perhaps over-optimistic? Should we be consolidating rather than looking at further capital investment in that area?

Ms Désirée Finnegan

We would welcome additional studio infrastructure. The constant evolution of the tax incentive has been really positive and is always responding to the competitive environment we are in. It is a highly competitive global industry. The studio infrastructure is really important to have across the country.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Malcolm Byrne)

I would like to thank everyone. I have often made the case in this committee that we have not had a good Irish political drama since "Charlie". I know there have been some dramas of this nature on TG4. I suggest that political drama goes on elsewhere and that facts can often be stranger than fiction. It would be particularly important, in the context of recommendations going forward, that the Department would keep the committee informed in terms of the outcomes with regard to the increase in the cap, the work being done on the unscripted sector and Ireland's competitive position especially with regard to the UK and other jurisdictions. This will also be important for Mr. Ó Domhnaill in terms of the outcome of the introduction of the levy, which is something this committee is considering in quite a bit of detail. The committee hopes to influence the policy but the key from the discussions today is that there are an awful lot of good things being done in the sector. We want the sector to continue to grow. Collectively as a committee, we have shown there is a willingness to support all of that.

I ask Ms Crowley to have a last word. She is a poacher turned gamekeeper. I appreciate that given her position, there is a limit on what she can say. She has seen the other side from her role within RTÉ and is aware of all of the really positive things that have gone on in the sector. From her perspective now, where does she see the sector?

Ms Sinéad Crowley

I am speaking from my new role. I could not comment on the previous one. What I just spoke about is still the most important thing. Cillian Murphy started off in small plays with Corcadorca. We do not get Oscar winners unless we get people who are trained from the very beginning. That is one of the things that is so interesting about the job I am doing at the moment. Sometimes the support from the ground up does not get as much recognition as the Oscar winners who get all of the headlines. By helping people from different voices and different communities, we will see growth across the industry.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Malcolm Byrne)

I thank the witnesses. I appreciate the drama today is competing with drama elsewhere. I thank all of the witnesses for their attendance and the committee secretariat for facilitating this.

Sitting suspended at 3.19 p.m. and resumed in private session at 3.50 p.m.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.26 p.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 10 April 2024.